No Dickheads Allowed: Building a Positive Company Culture with Ivan Katz

Robert
00:05
Okay. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the I am Landscape Growth podcast. I have the honor and privilege of introducing and welcoming Ivan Katz from Great Lakes landscape design to the show today. Ivan, thank you so much for doing this.

Ivan
00:21
My pleasure. I’m glad to be part of it.

Robert
00:24
Now, normally we do this little kind of orientation of like, help people understand, you know, where you’re at right now and how you got there. But before we do that, were just in the middle of conversation talking about acupuncture, of all things. I was like, happy Friday, like, what’s going on? And, Ivan, I mean, I just. Your energy’s epic. So I just, I didn’t want to, like, lose this thing because so many people, you know, self care, whatever, you know, whatever you want to talk about, taking the time for yourself to, you know, get yourself right. and a lot of people either know they need to, don’t necessarily do it. But you’re talking about acupuncture. So just. What were you saying just there?

Robert
00:54
Because I was talking about how I barely, I’ve used it before, but for rehab, like, you know, if I injured something or something like that to try to get me back. But you’re taking a bit of a different slant on the whole thing, and it seems to have been working for you pretty good, right?

Ivan
01:05
Well, much like a lot of things that I do, it started off as one thing. I work hard, I play hard. So, you know, I have this trigger point massage guy that I go to, and he wasn’t able to fit me in the following week, so he suggested acupuncture maybe would help as well. Went in thinking it was going to help me physiologically, but went in there and he, like, took my pulse and. And he’s like, oh, you’re stressed out. So it’s like, I can help you with that. So I’ve been going religiously every other week since. For a little bit, I was going weekly, but I had to back it down just because of time constraints. But basically what it does is it puts me in this, like, rem state where I’m twitching and sleeping and, you know, I’m there for an hour.

Ivan
01:56
You know, I don’t. I’ve never really looked to see how many needles, because some of them, when they go in, it’s just like, whoa. Like, it takes me to a, like, I respond very well to. To therapy, and this guy gets me, you know, so I go in there, I could be at like an eight, nine, you know, it’s the end of the day, the end of a week, you know, all the stuff that’s going on. We moved buildings, renovating my house, you know, just running the business and all these other things. And it’s like, I come out of there and for three days, I’m. My wife’s like, you need to go every day.

Robert
02:31
Yeah, exactly. Or at least every three days.

Ivan
02:34
I like being around you more. So it was an unintended benefit, but, you know, along the lines of, you know, like, what we talked about, self care and self awareness, and it’s been a, like an unexpected, epic outcome.

Robert
02:53
All right, cool. So, I mean, I love that, too, because a lot of people listening might think to themselves, you know, I’m too busy for that right now. You know, maybe I’ll do that next year or something like that. And, you know, one of my favorite quotes is if. If you want time, you have to take time, and time’s easy when it’s important, right? So it’s really about priorities. So anyway, we’re going to get to that, too. And I know part of the conversation with you, there’s going to be part of it.

Robert
03:15
So getting back to the original part of this conversation and introducing yourself, just leading the company and kind of how you ended up getting there, and then we’re going to kind of go into the catalyst, make change that you undertook many years ago, but just kind of cursory Cole’s notes of where you’re at right now and kind of what led you there.

Ivan
03:36
So I started this company in 1989. So this is our 34th year in business, and it was really, I graduated college and I didn’t have a job. So I’m like, I’m going to give this a try. I guess I. In hindsight, I was always doing something entrepreneurial, whether it was the fact that.

Robert
03:54
You graduated, still pretty impressive.

Ivan
03:56
Yeah, that’s. Yeah, that was no joke. That is an accomplishment. I don’t know how I did it, but I. I mean, it’s like anything else. I. I grind. I grinded my way through college because I was more interested in working. And I. Classic entrepreneur squirrel, can’t focus. So I got through it, started this business, and it’s been a journey. So 34 years later, I mean, we started out really just doing, like, annual flowers. That was how I got into this whole world, working for this woman that I met while I was a bartender, putting myself in college. So, you know, she’s like, you want to make some extra money? And that turned into planting flowers and doing it by piece. And then, you know, I ultimately ran her business for her.

Ivan
04:49
And so when I graduated from school, I traveled Europe for almost three months, came back and had no job prospects or opportunities, and started the business. Fast forward today. You know, now we’re approaching 60 staff members. We just moved into a new facility. We’ve got a leadership team that’s been together now for five years. We adopted EOS as an operating system in 2016 to 17 season and we identify as a design build maintenance firm. And then in the winter for high end residential. And then now we’ve kind of tapped into this design build market for commercial kind of properties where we’re acting as the GC as well. It’s been a real interesting ride this year. Yeah. And then in the wintertime we do snow removal.

Ivan
05:54
And that’s a segment of our business that we’re starting to grow and pay a lot of attention to. It’s really an entity out in and of itself if you want to do it right. That even though I’ve been doing it, I haven’t been doing it correctly. And now we’re, you know, it’s really a twelve month commitment that gets executed over five.

Robert
06:17
Okay, that’s very cool.

Ivan
06:18
And so we’re taking a different approach. And so we focus more on high needs industrial 24/7 we’re looking into that stuff and that’s manufacturing and stuff like that, you know, with where we’re, the market that we’re trying to move into and then smaller stuff. So a lot of the market, everybody wants to go after high square footages of asphalt and they don’t want to deal with the small stuff. And we have a minimum that we execute. So I can do a lot of small stuff close to where we hub out of.

Robert
06:54
Yeah.

Ivan
06:54
Seems to work as well because we can charge a higher margin. that’s been a good strategy and as we continue to build it out.

Robert
07:05
Okay, well, we’re on the topic quickly, this 24, this 20, this twelve month approach to snow. Can you just give us quick Cole’s notes on that?

Ivan
07:14
So like, truth be told and to be transparent. I hate snow.

Robert
07:21
And we live in Costa Rica for two years. I’m with you, buddy.

Ivan
07:24
Right. So I, what I found out is it’s not so much that I hate snow, it’s like I just don’t want to, like, I don’t want to have to wake up in the middle of the night. I don’t want to have to be responsible for it. I don’t even like to sell it. So what I’ve done is I’ve changed my role. So I do the business development. I hand off the leads to my salespeople. I have people running the division that are very passionate about it and capable. And so that was really the thing. But, you know, you’re giving away your profits in the first part of the year, and we’re struggling to break even.

Ivan
07:56
So, you know, now if we can get it to the size that we’re projecting, you know, we can start off the year, you know, either break even or be profitable from the beginning.

Robert
08:06
Awesome.

Ivan
08:07
So, like, even in some of the networking stuff where I, what I’ve learned is they’re like, you know, you can’t just turn it on and off. So we’re taking a longer, holistic approach to it. Meaning, like, okay, what are we doing to prepare? When is our equipment getting maintained? You know, it comes off the truck. All the parts are identified, they’re all ordered, and then everything gets repaired, and then everything starts to get installed. So. And we’ve already sent out our renewal of clients. We’ve already started, you know, where are we going after? And, like, we’re trying to hustle work now so that, you know, come September, October, really, we’re just training. You know, you got to train new drivers.

Ivan
08:51
We did start full time employment offerings year round for people so that we could maintain employees and then have a snow staff, because that can be a struggle. We’re very fortunate. We do a lot of things that I think entice people to come and for our internal staff to bring people. For example, the dollar an hour. So if you bring Robert, you bring a friend, you get an extra dollar an hour for every hour he works.

Robert
09:20
So, snap.

Ivan
09:22
So, so there’s, we’ve had some really good success. We had one guy bring four people in.

Robert
09:26
Yeah.

Ivan
09:27
So we, last year, we had more shovelers than we needed, you know, but unlike, you know, like everyone else, but.

Robert
09:35
Like, no one has that problem. No one has more shovelers than they need.

Ivan
09:39
No, but we’ve done a very good job. you know, and we pay well because that’s the hardest job of all. You can, you know, sitting in a plow truck and driving around drinking coffee heated is a lot different than, you know, and that’s how our crews run. So our plows plow and our walk crews clear the walks.

Robert
09:59
Right.

Ivan
09:59
You know, that could be ranging from a site that has a mile of walkways, and they’re doing it with a gator and a v blade and a spreader on the back of it. So we’ve gotten into different equipment, snow raiders and stuff like that to try and, you know, make it easier on the guys.

Robert
10:13
Yeah.

Ivan
10:14
To the point of we’re buying Isuzu cab over trucks for our maintenance crews. And now they’ll be able to use them in the winter because they can roll that equipment right up the ramp, keep pallets of salt inside. You know, in the new facility, we’re, we’ve got enough room where we’ll be able to store all our trucks indoor. So people will come in, punch in and leave.

Robert
10:33
Yeah. No clearing snow off the trucks, warming them up.

Ivan
10:37
Yeah. No fueling. Everything will be done because we have daytime workers that, you know, they’re, they want hours all winter. So now we’ve guaranteed employment for people all season.

Robert
10:48
Okay, so coming. Let’s, let’s, where does this whole thing start? Right. You’re 300 pounds and you’re going through an embezzlement. You know, let’s throw, let’s throw a right hook at what’s going on with the conversation.

Ivan
10:59
Walk us through. If I were going to write a book, I already got the title. And it’s what could go wrong? You know, and it spring from a conversation I have with this group of people that I run with and train with. And the guy, one of our friends is going on this trip that he planned, and in the middle of, like, I think it was Egypt or something, and he looked at me and my friend and he’s like, what could go wrong? And we both just broke out hard. Laughter and, you know, the guy goes on the trip and has a flat tire in the middle of nowhere, and he’s got, you know, like, what is he doing? He’s with his family, right?

Ivan
11:35
So it struck me as, like, I mean, everybody has a story in life, but I just, it stuck with me. Like, that’s our internal joke. Like, what could go wrong?

Robert
11:45
What could go wrong?

Ivan
11:46
You know? What could go wrong? You know, that’s my life to some extent. So I went through the embezzlement. It was a difficult time in my life. The valuable, very valuable lesson that I learned is it’s not that you can’t trust people. There are certain things you don’t need to trust them with, and then there’s trust and verify, you know, having proper controls in place. And it’s actually, the benefit is that I’ve, I learned a lot of good cash management skills. I do a weekly cash flow program, but I projected out for 52 weeks of the year. So I could show you right now. And then we update it on a monthly basis off our. Or weekly basis off our cash, you know, our ar and a forecast.

Robert
12:31
Yeah.

Ivan
12:32
So we’re really taking a hard dive. Look at what’s coming in. You know, a lot of it comes out of our schedule. Meetings, you know, what jobs are starting, what jobs are finishing, and what jobs are we onboarding? Selling. So if we sell, we get a 25% deposit when we start. We get a 25% draw, depending on the size of the job. Then we get paid 100% on completion. So. And then we have our monthly maintenance clients. That’s. That. That cash flow comes in. We just budget, like, 20% to 22% per week out of. Out of recurring revenue. That. That should come in. So that gives us a clear picture, you know, because there’s, you know, the. The accrual base, and then there’s cash.

Robert
13:18
Well, cash is what matters, actually.

Ivan
13:20
Yeah, cash is king. Right. So how are, you know, when you go broke and you get embezzled and you can’t even figure out how to make payroll, you know, you got to, like, really be watching nickels and dimes.

Robert
13:30
And it sounds like, you know, the pressure created a diamond, you know, like.

Ivan
13:34
Yeah, like, isn’t that how that. That all works? So what could go wrong? Well, I figured it all out, but, you know, I’m a recovering addict. I’m 28 years clean. But it went from, you know, drugs to food. So I became 300 pounds, no neck, from, like, I had a shoulder and a head. It was intense. I wish I would have saved some of those shirts and pants, because I must have been, like, a 45 waist. Like a. Like, I. I think I’m a 46 chest now. I think I was 58.

Robert
14:08
So then what? And then what? So, what got you going in the direction? Like, what was it that, you know, shifted your perspective?

Ivan
14:14
And, like, I just. Honestly, I couldn’t tie my shoes and breathe at the same time. I mean, that was the physical element of it. And then it was like, I got two daughters, and I’m like, what am I doing? And then I went through this. I mean, I’m in, like, a couple peer groups. One is the EO community, and one also the leaders edge peer group through Jeffrey Scott. And, you know, the one through EO I’ve been in for 20 some years. And we did this retreat, and we brought in a facilitator. He’s a friend of mine. We call him Coach Bob, and he wrote a book called I matter, and it was just like the aha moment just kind of like the same thing as recovery. Like with drug recovery, it was.

Ivan
14:54
I was making a choice, and I said, oh, my God, I’m, like, doing this shit to myself. And I was like, oh, boy. And then the I matter was, the gist of it is, and boiled down is, if you’re not taking care of yourself, then you can’t take care of those around you. So I started taking care of myself first so that I could be a better father, husband, brother, you know, son, all that.

Robert
15:21
Leader. Entrepreneur.

Ivan
15:23
Entrepreneur. You know, I think that stuff came a little bit later, but, I mean, I think because it was, like, from a health perspective, like, literally, I was a ticking time bomb. Cholesterol was through the roof. You know, they wanted me to get on blood pressure medicines, cholesterol medicines, and I’m like, forget it. Like, let me just try this. And so I just started with movement and diet and, you know, no more McDonald’s, no more fast food, no more soda, no more cokes, no more tasty freeze, dairy queen, all that stuff. I just cut all that out. And my cousin and I started going to the gym with him. I couldn’t do one. One sit up, right? And then I got. We, they opened up in La fitness, and we started doing, spinning classes. And I was like, this is awesome.

Ivan
16:10
So I kind of found my jam, and then a bunch of guys were talking about triathlons, and I’m like, wow, that sounds cool, because I’m a squirrel. And then I’m not doing the same thing all the time. I can swim one day and bike one day. I mean, I couldn’t swim a lap across a pool, right? And then I did my first triathlon in 2011. I did a sprint, I did two. Then I had knee surgery. And then I said, okay, I want to try something bigger. And I did a half ironman, which is like, more long, you know, more endurance, yo.

Robert
16:44
Yeah, they’re insane, man.

Ivan
16:46
And that turned out after a knee surgery.

Robert
16:48
Yeah. Let’s do an iron man. Half iron man.

Ivan
16:50
Well, what happened was went, we’re on our ride down, and all of a sudden, social media blowing up feeds about, they reduced the race. So I was pissed because I was. I trained so hard to do this half Ironman. you know, by then I was like, 190 pounds, so I had lost flying.

Robert
17:09
Yeah.

Ivan
17:10
So. And I was trained up, and they shortened it because of the heat index. The health department made them shorten the race. So, you know, like any normal human being, my friends, like, you guys have been training. Sign up for the full ironman with me. You guys can do this. We’ve been doing it together. And, and so I got on my iPad and I, like, clicked on go, and I signed up, I called my wife, and I’m like, we’re going to Wisconsin and we’re doing an Ironman. She’s like, what the hey? She’s like, are you sure? I’m like, what could go wrong?

Robert
17:44
You know?

Ivan
17:46
So we, I went and I went right from, like, basically an Olympic distance to a full ironman. So Olympic is like a ten, you know, a one miles ish swim, you know, a 32 miles bike in a ten k, and then a full Ironman is 2.4 swim, 112 bike in a marathon. So, you know, I mean, people were like, year.

Robert
18:16
What, you were addicted to drugs, to food and then fitness.

Ivan
18:22
Yeah, that was legitimately. When I finished my first triathlon, when I told people what I explained to me, it was that it gave me that endorphin kick. Yeah. Then it became this whole community thing. Epic, you know, where, I mean, these people are like, there’s a husband and wife that, I mean, you know, we travel, our families travel together now, and we became close friends and, you know, like, you know, when we go, like, we’re doing another one in October and I think there’s like eight of us racing, you know, we’ll all go out and together and then we’ll carry on and, like, vacation after. So we’re going to.

Robert
19:02
Yeah, that’s cool. So then you mentioned, so I matter being like a bit of a, you know, kind of catalyst point for you and then that parlaying into being a better husband, better father, a better son, whatever, and being a big push in the right direction for your life. And then you mentioned eos earlier, the entrepreneurial operating system, Gina Wichmann, and running your business this way. And so what was the leadership style like before this big change and then after you started looking inwards and improving yourself? Like, how did that show up in the company afterwards?

Ivan
19:50
So I think what. I mean, that’s an amazing question, but I think the leadership style was, I mean, I was the dominant one. I was the chief cook and bottle washer, right? I did everything.

Robert
20:04
So it’s like more directorial. Like, you do that. I’m going to go do this. Let’s go.

Ivan
20:08
Yeah, I mean, everything came through me and then, whereas now everything goes through des from me to des is my general manager.

Robert
20:17
Awesome.

Ivan
20:18
So what eos did was it brought structure. So in 2015, ish 16, we had a large revenue jump growth, and I was like, whoa, we have no process. Like, how did I do this?

Robert
20:31
Like, what could go wrong?

Ivan
20:33
Yeah.

Robert
20:34
Wait.

Ivan
20:34
But it was like, how did this happen? It was just. So what eos brought was structure, process, planning, and then fast forward to 2021, where I brought on Jeffrey Scott as a consultant. That brought me the next level, which was running my business proactively versus reactively. So, going back eos, we developed our mission statement, which is transforming spaces and lives using nature and innovative design. And that was the beginning of. Okay, what are we really trying to do here? I know we do landscapes, really. We sell labor and plants, but what are we really doing? And that’s where the real crystallization has been over the last and the magic these last three seasons. Right. Like, we’re more living our mission.

Robert
21:24
Yeah. That’s cool. Because you identified what you actually are doing instead of trying to create something that isn’t real.

Ivan
21:29
Yeah. I mean, I just articulated it correct. And the reason I hired a consultant is I was frustrated because it was inconsistent. And I’m like, this just isn’t right. It’s just not right. Profitability was inconsistent, and I didn’t. I couldn’t take it anymore. You know, like, I like to say, you know, people are like, what happened? Well, I’m an overnight success in 34 years.

Robert
21:54
Right.

Ivan
21:55
You know, but it’s not.

Robert
21:56
It’s.

Ivan
21:56
It’s a lot of learning and. And, you know, making mistakes.

Robert
22:02
Well, and one of the things being vulnerable about it. See, what you said there? So one of the things, you know, we see a lot is when we ask people about growth constraints, few people answer my headspace. You know, few leaders answer the growth constraint is me. A lot of them talk about labor demand, input costs, you know, inflation, economy, all these things out here. But what I hear about the way you’re talking about things is you kind of, like, looked in a mirror and said, you know, what do I got to do to make it better and then start working on it for years.

Ivan
22:37
Right. So it’s been a. Like, literally, I took on eos, and it’s been a seven year to where I am today. And it was so because I did this event or a thing I started this year, coffee with Ivan, where people can ask me any questions. And one of my employees said, what’s the hardest thing about being an entrepreneur? And I said, letting go and trusting people. So we become the ultimate bottleneck in the company. And even though we started off eos in the beginning, I was the visionary and the integrator and the salesman and the sales manager and I still wearing too many hats. And then it slowly started to evolve.

Ivan
23:17
At one point we talk about being vulnerable, but I had to open up to my team through an exercise I did in my EO retreat, which was, what is one of your limiting beliefs? And in my limiting belief was that they could never produce the work. If I sold at the full capacity, I could sell it. And I literally went to my leadership team and I told them and they were all like, bring it.

Robert
23:43
Bring it on.

Ivan
23:46
And that was when things started to really epically change in that respect. But bringing on eos was great. Eos doesn’t really delve into the financial metrics. If I could go back and tell my, let’s see, I was 23 or 24 when I started. If I could go back 34 years and tell myself something, it would be hire a consultant and get some financial metrics and benchmarking in place. Cause the power of a peer group is ridiculous.

Robert
24:20
Okay, cool. So let’s touch on that and to clarify. So, Ivan, you’re talking about eos, the entrepreneurial operating system, which has been designed by Gina Wickman and has a network of coaches that help people implement this management framework. Then there’s EO entrepreneurs organization, which is a peer group for entrepreneurs, over a million bucks in revenue. Then you’ve got peer group Jeffrey Scott. So can you just touch a quickly on the impact of being part of EO had on you and then what this next level of, like, industry oriented peers has on you?

Ivan
24:53
Yeah, the EO concept was great because the differentiator is the Jeffery Scott is industry specific EO. You are not in a group where you have a conflict. So there’s no other landscape contractors in the group. In my group, I have several of the guys in my group have sold their businesses. So getting experience that way. So it’s personal, professional, family. A lot of what the concept of EO is that if you need a job description, you can get a job description. But what’s really holding us back? Is it the story in your head? What is the real issue? The real issue isn’t that you don’t have a salesman. The real issue is that you can’t get clear.

Ivan
25:40
Like, for me, what I realized through the group was I didn’t have processes and procedures, so how the hell was I going to ever hire someone, right? Everything was in my head, so I had to get it all out of my head. So EO really is revolves around Gestalt speaking from experience. And every month it’s the first Thursday of every month. And then we do a retreat every year. This year we’re going to Machu Picchu, so that should be epic.

Robert
26:13
Sounds horrible.

Ivan
26:15
Yeah. And then, you know, it’s just somebody presents and then we’ll do a couple other presentations and you talk about your top 5%. So in our group, we also talk about what our KPI’s are for the year. Are we on track? Are we off track? So we kind of hold each other accountable and then presentations will range around. Hey, I want to start this new division. And everybody’s role is to ask clarifying questions to make sure you’ve considered all the different things. And then everybody gives experience on that particular topic.

Robert
26:48
Cool. So that’s EO. And then, you know, obviously there’s more to the organization, but if anyone wants to check it out, just Google entrepreneurs organization, you can find some either close to you or just the whole global thing. But then industry specific, peer to peer, you know, working with Jeffrey Scott, a lot of folks in the industry have speak very highly of their experience working with him and the people that he brings around them in those peer groups. So what has that done for you? And then what made you decide to get involved? Right.

Ivan
27:12
I think it’s, you know, pick your camp, right? There’s tons of consultants out in our industry that are available, and I think you got, it’s like anything else, you know, an eo, you got to pick the right implementer. If you don’t gel with the guy, it’s not going to work. And it’s the same thing with a consultant. And what do they bring to the table? To me, it’s the concept of a coach. And where that’s really benefited me is like, I’ve never had a coach. And I love it because he pushes me, he challenges me. You know, he beats me up when I need to beat up, he calls me out. I mean, there’s never, like, there’s no mincing words. And that’s what I need. I don’t, I don’t need it sugar coated. I just need people to just tell.

Robert
27:54
Me, well, and, you know, what’s beautiful about this whole thing is that, you know, if you look at becoming a world class athlete in any discipline, there are two things that athletes do that entrepreneurs are just prone to not doing. The first one, which people usually get over is what you’re talking about is having a coach. You can’t be the best in the world if you don’t have a coach. But entrepreneurs think, for some reason, they can do it without a coach. And then the second. The second thing, and entrepreneurs never do this. I mean, we talked about it at the very beginning, is rest. World class athletes have rest baked into their routines. But entrepreneurs, for some reason, especially ones between one and $2 million in revenue, don’t think they need vacations.

Ivan
28:30
Yeah. So, interestingly enough, up until the last three months, because of moving my business and buying a building and all that, I had traveled out of the state, whether it be for personal or professional, once a month for almost two years, I was doing that. I’m going to get back to that. It’s good for me. It’s good for the team. That’s what vacations are for, right? You then learn what’s going on. Excuse me. Are people performing at their level? Where are your holes? Yeah.

Robert
29:06
What do you, what message do you have to come back to that shouldn’t have been there?

Ivan
29:09
Right? Like, if a person can go away, debrief properly in using all these tools, but the concept of a coach, you know, is. Is great. The concept of rest is great. And I had never done it. You’re trying to muscle through it on your own when you don’t need to. But, like, it’s funny because my presentation to my EO group was, hey, I’m going to hire this consultant. And someone said, so what are you going to do? Like, what do you mean? He goes, well, he’s going to give you all this information. What are you going to do? And I said, I’m going to drink the Kool Aid. But it’s like everything else. You read a book, you take what works and you move in that direction. But that was his answer. Do I do everything he tells me? No. Do I.

Ivan
29:55
Do I consider it and listen it and use it and make thought out of it 100%. But, you know, if you’re not willing to make the changes that are clearly evident. And we had a lot of changes to make, but we came back and we hammered. I mean, I’ve got these bracelets and it says WGSD on it. See that?

Robert
30:17
Yeah.

Ivan
30:17
And that’s our internal rally for this year. That came out of a conversation with the client who said, yeah, you know, we really like working with you because you get shit done. So WGSD, we get shit done. And now that’s, like, what we’re rallying around. I mean, you know, we moved in 30 days.

Robert
30:37
Yeah.

Ivan
30:38
Doesn’t happen because of me. And if you could come around here and see the pride in ownership of people that I have, like, you know, three or four years ago, I was getting to a point where I didn’t want to come to work. And now it’s like, that’s my happy place. They were congratulating me. I’m like, don’t congratulate. Look at, congratulate yourselves. Without you guys, we’re not here.

Robert
31:03
Not even close. Right. And, okay, so getting to that, though, right? Like, this is, this wasn’t the way it was. Right. And this journey of, you know, improvement of self over time to then become a better leader and then create an environment like this. There was something that in our last talk, you mentioned about the all blacks.

Ivan
31:21
And legacy, so that one of their core values is no dickheads. So we have, in my three year vision, I have something that’s what it says. And so, you know, part of Eos is that you hire and fire on your core values. But it’s really hard when the labor markets are tight, you know, even though we’ve created and we’re working towards this really utopic kind of a situation where it’s a win for everybody, there’s still always challenges. And, you know, were able to just say, I finally came in because people were saying to me, well, if you don’t like what I’m doing, I’ll just go work for somewhere else and I’ll make more money. So I came into my leadership team and I said, no more dickheads and I’m done.

Ivan
32:11
If somebody says that to me, I’m going to shake their hand, thank them for everything they’ve done for me, and ask them to leave. You should go do that. As I have a friend. That’s his favorite thing. You should go do that. Then you really, you should go do that. And they’re like, but what are we going to do about work? I said, we’ll pick and choose and we’ll work to the capacity that we have. So instead of being eight weeks out, we’ll be twelve weeks out. Like, what do you want me to tell you? But let’s go out and find the people that we like, because you got to come to work. You’re at work with these people more.

Robert
32:48
Than you are with your friends and family, right?

Ivan
32:50
So why are we working with people that are dicks?

Robert
32:54
Honestly, I love it.

Ivan
32:58
So we did these reviews. One of the things that we did when we onboarded with Jeffrey Scott was he sent out reviews to all my people, anonymous reviews. And I came back and I was a bit of an asshole. And I had to, like, and I was not. He goes, you’re not surprised at all by this? And I’m like, no, and not that. Like, I was, I just had some things to work on, but I, that’s part of what I’ve done to make it so, like, people understood that they could really tell me, hey, you’re out of line, or, hey, don’t do that.

Robert
33:34
Well. And it’s, and it’s amazing too, because if you don’t give somebody, an organization, you know, a group, an opportunity to provide anonymous feedback, it really is difficult for them to get it out. Like, there’s no way they’re going to come up to you, muster up the courage, you know, whatever they need to do to say, hey, can I sit down with you? 15 minutes. I’m not really happy with what’s going on here. And I think you need to improve on this. You know, like, few people, if any, have the wherewithal or like. And I think to your point, though, it’s up to the leader in the organization to create the environment, to create the feedback. Right. Like, that is epic.

Robert
34:07
I do my anonymous feedback maybe once a year ish, sometimes a bit more frequent, and it stings a little bit sometimes, but I find that’s where the most growth happens. Like 100% and 80% of the feedback. You know, I, they don’t get it, whatever, it’s fine. But 20% of it’s like, pretty consistent. And if they’re all saying it’s probably true. So I probably need to say that this is what I’m working on. And thank you for the. Thank you for taking the time to fill it out.

Ivan
34:33
And then, and then, so that was the first year and, but then we put in place an internal recruiter, HR person, and, you know, and she was bilingual, and that was a non starter for us when we hired her. And it gave, the employee was more employee facing, meaning she was firm but fair. So if people came and said something, she was like, well, no, no, that’s not going to fly. What about you? Where’s your accountability? And were able to start getting another feedback loop in there. And then we’ve been religiously doing now l ten production meetings every other week. One week is maintenance, one week is production construction, and that’s another place for feedback loops.

Ivan
35:17
And I’m in those meetings as one of the salespeople, but really giving people the opportunity and one of the things that came out of it was kind of along the lines of the whole no dickhead thing, which is, you know, you guys, why is Ivan so angry at the end of every year? And I’m like, he’s right. She goes, what do you mean? This is the HR person? I said, because I’m so frustrated that I have to treat these people that talk like that and pay them hourly the same. They don’t work the same. They don’t care like the other guys do, and the other guys bleed for the company, and they’re getting the same benefits. And to me, why would you want those people around?

Ivan
36:02
So when I started framing it back to them that way, and I said to them, you know, does that guy work as hard as you? No. Does it bother you that he doesn’t care about where equipment goes and taking care of equipment? Yes. I said, so doesn’t it? Wouldn’t it. Doesn’t it bother you that they’re getting paid the same number of hours as you? They’re like, they didn’t. They never thought about it that way.

Robert
36:25
Right.

Ivan
36:26
The dialogue has worked both ways. It. You know, and that’s the thing. It took three years to get it to work both ways. It had to start with me, and then it. And then it went down the leadership chain, because we started getting feedback on all the leadership, and it was real. Like, he’s a hot head in. He’s unapproachable, and sometimes this person is difficult to have a conversation with. And so that was a lot of what came out of our annual leadership meeting this year, which was personal growth and self awareness, and how were we going to improve. But people. It was an unusual meeting. And getting people the whole Eos thing, I tell people when they come on, it’s weird.

Robert
37:14
We.

Ivan
37:14
We say our mission statement before every meeting. I know it’s a little weird, but trust me.

Robert
37:20
Like, it’s only weird at the beginning.

Ivan
37:22
Yes.

Robert
37:23
Then you get used to it. It’s easy, right?

Ivan
37:26
But we had one guy. We hired him, and. And he wouldn’t do it. But he doesn’t work here anymore.

Robert
37:31
I was gonna say that didn’t last long.

Ivan
37:34
It doesn’t last. It doesn’t last. Like, he could not bring himself to do it. I don’t feel it.

Robert
37:39
Okay, well, that’s clear, then. But, I mean, if anything, now you’re creating this culture that’s pushing splinters out.

Ivan
37:47
Right? I mean, and, listen, we’re not bashful. We started it. Them learning. It was a bribe. So we had attendance issues four years ago.

Robert
37:57
Oh, yeah. This is great.

Ivan
37:58
Cool, right? And so we. We started it off as just, okay, if you had perfect attendance, we had a point system that we adopted that somebody brought in that their husband’s place of business used. And if you’re within this timeframe, it’s fine. If you’re late, it’s a half a point and it’s a point system. And I’m like, okay. All of a sudden, people started attending more because if you had perfect attendance, you got $100.

Robert
38:27
Beauty.

Ivan
38:28
So, you know, we still were probably only 50% of the people, right. Then we started making them know something like our core values to get it. So now it’s called our VTO bonus. And they have to know something to get it. They have to have perfect attendance. And then, you know, they all know. And then at our team building events monthly, you know, well, somebody new can get up and say them. And then, you know, like, we have vending machines here that we just sell this stuff out as low cost. And so we take all the dollar bills back and then we’ll, you know, throw people out like a stack of singles.

Robert
39:08
Yeah, yeah.

Ivan
39:09
Standing up in front of 60 people and either in English or Spanish, reciting them.

Robert
39:15
Love it.

Ivan
39:16
So, . And then if they have a full.

Robert
39:19
Is it volunteer? Like, hey, who knew? Wants to do it? And then someone does it. Or do you like Dave go?

Ivan
39:24
No. Right now it’s volunteer. But now we’re like, if we have a production staff of. I think we’re up to almost. We’ll be up next week, the 34 or 36, give or take. And then there’s some office people that are eligible, the salaried people. Some of them are. Some of them aren’t. Leadership is not. But I think we’re at like 90 some percent, 93% take the bonus.

Robert
39:54
Epic.

Ivan
39:56
So, like, I think, yeah, most somewhere in the nineties.

Robert
40:02
So it sounds like you’re having a lot of fun, right?

Ivan
40:05
Yeah, we like to have fun.

Robert
40:06
Like you personally, though, as a leader. Right. With a 60 person company, you’re having a lot of fun.

Ivan
40:10
Way more than I. It’s a little weird. It can get a little weird. Like, that’s what I’m trying to figure out. Like, I keep saying to my gm, what’s going to happen? Like, what’s going to go wrong? Like, what could go wrong? What’s going, like, now I’m trying to anticipated, and it’s like, more personalities. We moved. Not everyone’s good with change. I thrive on change.

Robert
40:31
Right.

Ivan
40:33
Masochistic. But it’s.

Robert
40:34
It’s wartime CEO’s. We talk about this a lot, right?

Ivan
40:37
When.

Robert
40:38
When things are in peace times, wartime, CEO’s go crazy.

Ivan
40:41
Right. That’s what I like.

Robert
40:44
Exactly.

Ivan
40:45
I am. I think if I had to pick a.

Robert
40:47
Sounds like M and a is in your future, Ivan.

Ivan
40:51
Yeah, we’re talking, you know, like, that’s one of the things. And that’s something that I was talking to Mike Jeffrey about, which is like, you know, here’s an idea I’ve got. And he’s like, okay, let’s get you to the negotiating table. Not necessarily m and a, but my own little style to kind of grow my maintenance because, you know, construction keeps outpacing maintenance and I really want to build my recurring revenue. So like, how do you do that? So I’ve got a model that I have in mind. We also work with a fractional CFO. So I’m going to have him try to. I’m going to see if I can put together a business model, get to the negotiating table for at least one company this year. Not on like the level of a Frank Mariani, where he’s 70 or 80 million to 280 million.

Ivan
41:38
I’m not looking at something like that, but my own model where maybe we can grow and, you know, through. Through that as well as organically pick up companies that don’t have our processes, don’t have our procedures, don’t have our culture, but they have the clientele that I can then, you know, because were good at upselling and we’re good at selling enhancements.

Robert
42:01
Yeah, that’s cool.

Ivan
42:02
So that would be. That would be like a nice natural thing to do.

Robert
42:06
Evolution for Ivan.

Ivan
42:08
Yeah, evolution for me. And working on bigger things and really becoming that visionary. Right.

Robert
42:12
Like, I love it, man. You know, so that while you’re selling now, you’re selling like a much bigger picture. Right. Which is what the visionary is all about. So then, okay, to wrap up and first and foremost, we got to do another one because there’s a whole bunch of stuff that I wrote down in our notes from our free call. I didn’t even get a chance to get to. But if you were. If you were to share with the audience one, you know, author, resource, Ted Talk, whatever, somebody. Some resource that you think is really worth valuable people to check out, what would it be? That’s.

Ivan
42:47
See, that’s a hard one. I’ve read, like, so when COVID, give me a couple.

Robert
42:50
You can give me a couple. It doesn’t have to just be one, but if there’s a couple that just kind of come to mind.

Ivan
42:53
My phone, that the jar?

Robert
42:55
Yeah, of course.

Ivan
42:56
In. In general. Last year, I must have read ten or twelve military leadership books.

Robert
43:06
Cool.

Ivan
43:07
Those are. Those. Those are. Were amazing for me. I’m going to pull it up.

Robert
43:15
Yeah, sure.

Ivan
43:16
I made a list. I keep track because when I stopped doing social media through COVID, I’ve probably read 100 books since.

Robert
43:26
Seems like a better use of time somehow.

Ivan
43:29
Yeah. How to win friends and influence people was a good read.

Robert
43:33
Classic.

Ivan
43:34
legacy trident.

Robert
43:41
No, just give me. You’re going fearless. Okay, so how do win friends influence people? Legacy, which is all about the all blacks, isn’t it?

Ivan
43:50
Yeah.

Robert
43:51
And what was the third one?

Ivan
43:53
fearless was a good one.

Robert
43:58
Okay, that’s good.

Ivan
43:59
And. Or it’s your ship. Like, I got a whole list.

Robert
44:02
Of course you do. But we got to give these people reading for the next three years.

Ivan
44:06
I’ll share the list with you. It’s okay.

Robert
44:09
Yeah, share the list, and I’ll put it in the description of the. Of the interview.

Ivan
44:13
Here’s a weird $1 billion whale. It’s about one of the greatest scams of our time, and I don’t think many people know about it.

Robert
44:20
Epic. Well, thank you for doing this, Ivan.

Ivan
44:23
There was another one.

Robert
44:25
Oh, look it up.

Ivan
44:27
And it was. I don’t remember. Oh, the infinite game. Like, just about how it’s business is infinite. So, like, the year ends and then it starts all over.

Robert
44:39
Right? But the year is arbitrary.

Ivan
44:41
It is, because this is infinite. I’m the only one that could control the end. Otherwise, it’s an infinite. And people keep asking me, well, how long are you gonna do this for? And I can’t. I don’t have answer.

Robert
44:52
Well, you know what’s interesting with that question, too, is that, like, some people will ask us or ask others, they’re like, you know, you’re building your company to keep it, or you’re building your company to sell it. I was like, well, if you build your company to generate cash, it’s worth selling and it’s worth keeping. So why don’t we just do that, right and have fun?

Ivan
45:11
And then people splash the term retire in place. So right now, that’s where I’m at. I’m just gonna. Yeah.

Robert
45:17
Imagine you actually retired, you know? What would Ivan look like? Retired, divorced, in jail. You’d probably be in jail.

Ivan
45:24
You know, I was divorced and remarried. Same woman.

Robert
45:28
Oh, are you serious?

Ivan
45:29
What could go wrong?

Robert
45:30
Oh, buddy. There, see? We got to do another one, man. We got to do another one. I really appreciate you taking time to do this. One. And I know that if anybody started listening to this podcast, they have got to the end. So thank you very much for being a part of it, man.

Ivan
45:42
All right, thanks, Robert.