In this episode of the IM Landscape Growth Podcast, host Rob Murray interviews Matt Bell, founder of Geller’s Design Build Landscape.
He reflects on how his health crisis shifted his approach to business ownership, emphasizing the power of empathy and the importance of empowering his team. Matt shares how he transitioned from a fast-paced growth mindset to focusing on resilience and thoughtful financial planning.
He also offers valuable advice on building solid corporate structures and gaining peace of mind through life insurance. Additionally, Matt highlights the value of community, stressing the importance of networking and learning within local business and green industry circles. He encourages listeners to collaborate with their peers and leaves them with practical takeaways, such as restructuring for tax benefits and joining local business associations to foster both personal and professional growth.
“By structuring the business so I’m not needed day-to-day, I’ve empowered my employees to grow and thrive. It’s allowed me to focus on what I love doing, and let others take on what they’re great at.”
Here’s what we discuss in today’s episode:
[00:00] Introduction
Rob introduces Matt Bell and the episode’s focus on his unique life and business experiences.
[01:25] Early Cancer Diagnosis and Its Impact on Business
Matt shares how a late-stage cancer diagnosis in his 20s impacted his view on life and business.
[02:31] Geller’s Design Build Landscape Overview
Matt provides an overview of his business, which focuses on high-end residential landscaping in Manitoba.
[04:50] How Cancer Shaped His Business Mindset
Matt discusses how living with cancer gave him a unique outlook on corporate structure, leadership, and empowering his team.
[08:24] Letting Go and Empowering Employees
Matt talks about the importance of structuring a business to operate independently of the owner.
[12:06] Growth Constraints in the Green Industry
Matt outlines how mindset and investing in people versus equipment can accelerate business growth.
[14:57] Scarcity vs. Abundance Mindset
How focusing on abundance and moving on quickly from failures has transformed his business.
[18:56] Investing in People Over Equipment
Matt emphasizes the value of investing in employees, providing training, and compensating them well.
[27:28] Financial Structuring and Corporate Planning
Practical advice on structuring a business for long-term success, including trust funds, insurance, and exit planning.
[33:54] Finding a Good Financial Planner
Tips for finding a financial planner who acts in the best interest of the business owner.
[37:00] Resources and Mentors for Learning
Matt highlights the importance of learning from local business owners and associations.
Actionable Key Takeaways:
- Letting Go Empowers Growth: Structuring your business to operate without you not only ensures continuity but empowers employees to take ownership of their roles.
- Mindset Shift: Focus on abundance over scarcity. Don’t dwell on missed opportunities; instead, put your energy into future growth.
- Invest in People: Investing in employee training and fair compensation leads to long-term loyalty and improved business outcomes, even more than investing in equipment.
- Corporate Structuring: Setting up proper corporate structures early, such as family trusts and life insurance, can protect your business and family in the long run.
- Learn from Your Community: Valuable business lessons can often come from local business owners and mentors rather than big-name speakers or authors.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Belgard: Training for the design and project management team on paving stone installation.
- Provincial Landscape Associations: Mentioned as a key resource for learning from peers.
- Life Insurance Products: Discussed in terms of business planning and personal financial protection.
Episode Transcript
00:00
Rob
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the IM landscape Growth podcast, where entrepreneurs help entrepreneurs grow faster, better, and stronger in the green industry. From leadership to sales to recruiting and operational excellence. We cover the topics holding entrepreneurs back and share how to get past those bottlenecks with the best in the industry. I’m your host, Rob Murray, co founder and CEO of Intrigue, a digital marketing company focused on helping landscape companies grow. So sit back and enjoy the show. All right, sweet. Welcome back to another episode of the IM Landscape Growth podcast. Today we have a unique guest. I can say without exception, Matt Bell, founder of Geller’s design build landscape out of the Winnipeg. I’m stoked to have you on the show. Thanks so much for being a part of this, Matt.
00:50
Matt Bell
Awesome. Thanks for having me, Rob.
00:52
Rob
So I say unique, and I mean, it’s not just like a stroke of the ego. Matt’s got a kind of a unique background when it comes to a bit of a life story and how it’s impacted business planning from a financial, insurance and a whole bunch of other aspects. So anybody here owner of a company ears up because this is going to be pretty insightful. So without me bastardizing, you know, the story, can you give us a quick Coles notes and then we’ll unpack it a bit more so people understand kind of where you’re coming from and what that perspective is all about.
01:25
Matt Bell
Yeah, so super quick Cole’s notes. In my mid thirties now own Geller’s successful landscape company and almost about 15 years old now. But when Geller’s did start, I went, actually underwent a very late stage cancer diagnosis. Something that to this day, I still live with. I still live with cancer to this day. So it’s given me a really unique, I think, maybe informed perspective, I guess, and how I view business ownership, corporate structure, stuff like that. Because I’ve learned a lot of life lessons early on that I don’t think you learn until a lot of times until it’s too late.
02:06
Rob
Yeah, you almost got shot out of the can and a little too early, you know, have that view of what end of life might look like. So that perspective, I think, is super helpful for a lot of people, and we’re going to get there. So before we do, quick gellers focus size just to give people some perspective of the type of business you’re running so they can understand where you’re coming from.
02:31
Matt Bell
Absolutely. We’re located in Winnipeg, Manitoba. We service all of Manitoba and northwestern Ontario. We are a staff of about 80 to 85 individuals, and we do anything outdoor living. So we offer turnkey resort style yards to homeowners. We do pools, landscaping surrounding them, paving stone decks, fences, pool houses, kitchens. And then we provide maintenance programs and maintenance plans afterwards. So we do work as much as we can year round in our climate. Got a couple of unique things we take on in the winter to keep our guys busy.
03:08
Rob
So you’re out of Manitoba. For those south of the border who don’t understand anything about Canada, we’re talking, what, two months? You have a two month operation.
03:17
Matt Bell
A little bit longer than that. I envy the folks that landscape in California, that’s for sure. But we get about a seven and a half month season if we really push it. We try and get about 32 weeks of full work capacity during our summer.
03:33
Rob
Season and then a little bit of stuff in the winter to keep folks around so that you’re not just letting people go or putting them into skee bum mode or whatever it might be.
03:40
Matt Bell
Yep, absolutely.
03:42
Rob
Okay, cool. So residential design, build focused outdoor living, you know, that resort style. So we’re talking more high end stuff, which is great. It helps people understand the context which you’ll be sharing from. But before we get into like, that, you know, business things, this unique perspective, you know, being diagnosed with cancer, that’s a big deal, you know, young too, right? So what was, what happened and how does that impact your perspective on ownership?
04:10
Matt Bell
I should preface it by saying, like, I can only speak to my lived experience with cancer, so I can’t pretend to know how anybody else, because everybody knows somebody with cancer, whether they have it themselves or a loved one or family member. So I can only speak to my lived experience and I honestly, I choose to approach my lived experience with a healthy dose of humor. So it’s not, you know, it’s not all doom and gloom for me. Reality is I’m a landscaper that got skin cancer. Like, you know, figure that one out. Surprise, surprise. I was young. I cut grass for ten years outside, played hockey in the winter, you know, focused on trying to get big muscles in a grade ten. And sunscreen was the enemy.
04:50
Matt Bell
And lo and behold, early twenties had a really small mole that was supposed to be nothing and then became something and then that something was supposed to be nothing. And you know what? Over a period of about four to six weeks, a small mole on my back ended up being diagnosed as malignant melanoma that was invasive and had already entered my lymph system. So underwent. Yeah, underwent a whole slew of surgeries, removed a portion of my lymph system, big stake out of my back, a couple biopsies and different diagnosis is along the way, and ended up with, you know, being in my mid twenties and early twenties, and being told I had about a 50 shot to make it five years. That was kind of the prognosis at that time. Fast forward, you know, I’m going on twelve or 13 years now.
05:39
Matt Bell
I’ve kind of beat all the odds with, you know, nothing that I’ve done. It’s all my doctors power to them, the treatments and the different things that I’m on now. We’ve gone from a world where there was no treatment options, it was just hope to a world where there’s lots of treatment options. That’s how fast the medical community has advanced, and I’ve been really lucky to be. To partake in some of those clinical trials and now be on treatment that has made things pretty stable. Amazing. Certainly I’ll live with cancer for the rest of my life. It’ll always be a part of me. But I’m at a point in my life where I’m living in the gray area. Not getting worse, not getting better, just living my life.
06:18
Rob
Cruising along and energy. Seems awesome, like, talking to you before this, like, you just seem like when it comes to your average bear, you’re still, you know, living life, at a very full degree, which is amazing.
06:32
Matt Bell
Every. Like I joke often every day is the best day of my life. I would never wish cancer or critical illness or, you know, a disability on anybody. Nobody at all. But I wish that everybody had the perspective you gain from undergoing something like that. I’m kinder. I have empathy. Made me a much better business owner having lived this, than if I didn’t. If I didn’t have that diagnosis.
06:59
Rob
Yeah. It’s so interesting that you say that for a couple of reasons. The perspective, which I want to come back to, because there’s unique in talking about this, like a corporate structure and getting things set up from a very sound perspective. Case, maybe something does happen, but also there was a story about this person talking about how, you know, what if I gave you $10 million, I make you happy? And they say, yeah, of course it would make me happy. And I say, okay, what if I give you $10 million and you can’t wake up tomorrow? You’re done. Well, I don’t want that. Then why aren’t you happy tomorrow? What’s the deal? You know, that perspective is just fascinating. So we’ll dig into both. So practically, financially, structurally, you. You get diagnosed. It’s like holy shit. Fuck. What the shit? And then, and then.
07:42
Rob
So what did that do then? How did that impact what you like, your decision, your outlook? What ended up happening? What was that thing that you started doing?
07:49
Matt Bell
So I think you recognize your own mortality. And, you know, everybody builds a business for different reasons. A big part of why I built my business is, you know, I want to take care of my family. I’ve got a number of brothers that work in the business. I want to make sure that they’re taken care of. I got a lot of staff that I consider family now that pay their mortgage, pay their, you know, support their children, their spouse. Working at Geller’s, I want to make sure that if I wake up tomorrow morning and get hit by a bus, they’re still looking, the business can go on.
08:24
Matt Bell
And the funny thing is that when you start to structure a business, to operate as if you’re not there, you end up empowering so many of your employees to really blossom and to do excellent work, and you start to create an atmosphere that allows you as an owner to, selfishly speaking, I get to work on the things I love to every day and the things I don’t really love doing at my business. I’ve been able to hire and have team members that they love doing those things. So the same mindset of kind of, you know, it’s so funny listening to the podcast circuit and different speakers. You know, there’s this mentality of always, you know, oh, I’m going to build my business so I don’t have to do anything. Well, like, I love coming to work. I absolutely love my job.
09:14
Matt Bell
I don’t want to do nothing. I just want to do the things that I really enjoy at work. So undergoing an illness where there was long periods of time where I couldn’t work, and I owe my business to my younger brother Jesse, who saved our business by being able to take the reins when I was hospital bound. You’re forced to let go a little bit. You’re forced to grow. I was forced to grow in being a business owner at a young age when just through trial by fire, but by no reason other than I had to either adapt or die, was almost.
09:48
Rob
The necessity is the mother of invention, right?
09:51
Matt Bell
Exactly.
09:52
Rob
So this is a common thread of conversation around letting go. And in my, I would say it’s more than a thousand conversations now with entrepreneurs about the idea of letting go. Some have done it, some want to do it, some don’t know how, and some don’t even want to at all. When you say things like, I had to let go. What did you let go of?
10:28
Matt Bell
So when I was first diagnosed, I had to let go of everything. You know, I was hospital bound, ran into some infection problems. I was trying to run my business from a palm trio I can remember. And like, that just. You can’t effectively do that. So.
10:44
Rob
So people might have heard you say palm tree, but you said a palm trio. And if anybody lists what that is, that’s amazing. It is not an adequate business device.
10:55
Matt Bell
No, it is the pre smart, like, it is the dumb phone that we used to have. Tina, I think it was the wannabe.
11:04
Rob
It was the wannabes phone.
11:05
Matt Bell
Yeah, yeah. So it was, yeah. I had to give up everything and rely on others to, quote, work, do work, hire, retain, you know, all of that.
11:16
Rob
So then what? So what happened? Did it all go to shit? Then the whole thing just broke?
11:20
Matt Bell
No, it didn’t broke. We sustained. So went from a period of like, I’m going to take on the world hypergrowth to a period of, let’s just survive. Forget p and l statements. Who cares if we make any money this year? Let’s just survive until I can get back into it. So I was laid up for maybe two or three months. That was the worst of it. And then I had to slowly integrate myself back into the business as I was able to recoup. And, you know, I learned that in just that short period of time that, you know, there are things you can be. You know, there were things I could begin to let go of and let other people do just as well, or almost just as well, and allow me to focus on other aspects of the business that would facilitate growth.
12:06
Rob
So wait a second. You’re trying to tell me in three months being laid up, not focusing on massive amounts of profit and hypergrowth, there was a group of people that all of a sudden stepped up to a level that maybe you didn’t know was possible, or they just all stepped up because they had to or whatever. Nothing imploded. And if anything, everybody got better, basically.
12:28
Matt Bell
Yeah, absolutely.
12:31
Rob
I mean, I. Pretty amazing.
12:34
Matt Bell
Now, don’t get me wrong. You know, we still had tractors that ran into fences and fire hydrants that got.
12:40
Rob
Okay, okay, so there’s some real stories here. Okay, great.
12:43
Matt Bell
Yeah. Stuff still went wrong, which might.
12:45
Rob
Have happened when you were there anyway.
12:47
Matt Bell
Exactly. It didn’t. You know, there’s still going to be somebody that drives a tractor into a fence, you know, 15 years later, that still happens. That’s just, that’s lawn care. That’s landscaping. That happens.
12:56
Rob
That’s part of the game. So coming back then, because there’s a couple of things, this is ridiculous. This is probably going to be two episodes, maybe three. But we go back to theme of the podcast. What’s the primary growth constraint? Holding entrepreneurs back in the green industry. What’s your take on that now?
13:17
Matt Bell
So it’s funny, because if you asked me that 15 years ago, ten years ago, even five years ago, my answer would probably be different at each time period in my life for my business. And I think that question in general, I thought about it in anticipation of having this conversation today. I think there’s a nuance to it depending on where your business size is and where geographically you’re located, where your market is. Like, there’s a lot that I think goes into answering that for us now, could I have gotten to the place I’m at in my business quicker now if I changed my mentality 15 years ago when I first started, or even ten years ago? Absolutely. What would I have changed from my mentality? Two major things.
14:04
Matt Bell
One, this, I think in our industry, there’s a mindset of scarcity, and if you view it as a mindset of abundance, I think you can grow quicker. And the second thing is investing in people versus some of the other things that we choose to invest in. So when I talk about a mindset of scarcity versus a mindset of abundance, I can remember stewing for days and weeks over the project. I didn’t get that a competitor got. And the mental energy that I would just waste thinking and replaying the. What did I say wrong to the client? What did I do wrong? What could I have improved on? There’s a time for that, but that time is very short. I did this wrong. I’m going to pivot. I’m going to move forward.
14:57
Matt Bell
Being able to take something like, hey, I didn’t get a quote, that company’s doing it, and they’re good. Awesome, great. Onto the next one. That is done. It is no longer in my. It’s in my rearview mirror. I’m moving on, and I’m pouring my energy into the next client. I’m going to meet the next proposal. I have the opportunity to look at. I think in our market in Winnipeg a lot, there’s this level of competition, or again, this mindset that every job somebody else gets is one I didn’t get. I can’t remember. I could call any landscaper in my market and ask them the last summer they didn’t sell out. And every summer you’re filled. Every single summer you’re at capacity.
15:45
Matt Bell
And I think by flipping the switch now to where if something doesn’t go right or we lose a bid or we don’t have a project booked three months from now, let’s move all of our energy knowing that it is going to work itself. Well, we’re going to get a project three months from now. We didn’t land this one. Our phone call is going to ring tomorrow. Let’s focus on being the best representation we can for Gellers and ourselves tomorrow with the client versus, you know, the off day.
16:18
Rob
We’re dwelling. Dwelling. Yeah. I love that. With saying three swn. Some will, some won’t. So what next? Like, you know, getting people off this idea of, I should have. I should have, you know, people should on themselves. I just think that what you just said articulates this idea of this abundance. Let’s focus on what is coming and how amazing it’s going to be versus, you know, losing something we never even had.
16:42
Matt Bell
That’s a great way to put it. Losing something we never had, you know, we never had, like, it applies to even client profiles. And when you’re meeting clients, you know, I’m going to meet, you know, seven clients this week, and five of the, you know, two of them are going to be rockstar. Ten out of ten fits for gellers. And, you know, four of them are going to be, you know, maybes. You know, maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. We have to spend more time with them. There’s probably going to be one or two that from the first hello. I know they’re not a good fit, not bad people, and not a bad project, but just different approach, different thoughts. What we value in a client and what they value in a contractor don’t match up.
17:24
Matt Bell
And ten years ago, every single client I met with, I felt like I needed to close. My expectation for my staff was that they would close it and we would spend so much time and energy with that, in my opinion, incorrect mentality. Whereas I almost feel like a video game. You got 100 energy points, and instead of spending ten over here with this client, that’s not a good fit. And then another 50 on these maybes. If I can put 50 energy points with each client that I know is a home run and close both of those, we’re off to the races. Perfect. Yeah, it’s, you know, so that this mindset that, like, knowing where we can spend our energy and where it’s worthwhile, spending it just knowing that, like, Tom Hanks has a very similar quote.
18:14
Matt Bell
It’s all over YouTube and Instagram and all that. But, you know, when things are going bad, this, too will pass. When things are going good, this, too will pass. You know, we’re. It’s. You have to be able to weather it a little bit.
18:29
Rob
I love it. Just, you know, keep it even keel, like, not too high, not too low. Just keep moving and understand what you’re good at and what you value to find the right customer. It’s super important. So then you talked about this idea. Invest in people. Excuse me? What is that? I mean, some people say it, some people don’t. It means a lot of different things. A lot of different people. When you say invest in people, how does that come to life at Gellers?
18:56
Matt Bell
Every landscaper, I think it’s a trait that we have. We love to buy equipment. We love to buy skid steers. We love to buy new trucks.
19:06
Rob
Well, they’re nice and they’re shiny and they got all the gadgets, and they sound great.
19:10
Matt Bell
Oh, and they comfortable. Your company decal on the side, and you take a picture and, you know, added to the fleet and all of this stuff, and I get it. I like it, too. But we’re so eager, as I think, in our industry, and I think all contractors are guilty of it, we’re so eager to go and buy that new piece of equipment. Yet we are constantly, and I think it’s very prevalent in our market, we are consistently underpaying staff and refusing to give a staff member that, you know, $2 an hour raise that they’ve earned. But, you know, it’s not in the budget this year. You know, I’m sorry, John. I cannot afford an extra $3,000 over the entire year to keep you employed here when they’re a good employee.
20:06
Matt Bell
And that, you know, it took me a while to learn that, but you have to be willing to invest from a monetary and a training capacity in your staff in order to build effectively. And I’ll take it a step further. I have a number of project managers that. And this is gonna go public, so I won’t disclose their income or things like that, but they’re compensated extremely well, and I can remember recruiting them and having them come and join the Geller team, the Geller family here, and thinking to myself, you know, like, I’m, one of their years of salary is a. Is a new skid steer for me. Like, I could, you know, I’m going to pay them for a year of work.
20:55
Matt Bell
Or I can buy, you know, buy a skid steer, but like, I go buy that skid steer, it’s just a nice shiny piece of equipment. It’s not going to do any work for me. It’s not going to do what I need to. It’s not going to allow me to grow. Not yet. Like, in time I’ll need one, but no.
21:10
Rob
And maybe they’ll turn into selfdevelop autonomous skid steers, but that is not now.
21:16
Matt Bell
Yeah, not happening. So, you know, being able to almost, for some staff with the notion that, like, I’m investing in bringing this staff member on because I know it’s going to improve and change my business. I’m going to. To park this salary in my budget knowing I’m going to bring them on. And if I work well with them and we work hard, it’s going to allow us to grow our business by x on top of what we do. Right now, I have somebody that can fit the role that I need to be able to do that.
21:52
Rob
Love it. And the other thing is, like, a skid’s tier can ever help lead a team. Your, I think your earbuds kicked out.
21:59
Matt Bell
Yeah, I got it back on now.
22:00
Rob
Oh, you got them back. Perfect. Anyway, I was just saying, like, a skin steer can never help lead a team.
22:05
Matt Bell
No, not at all.
22:07
Rob
But a wonderful human being that’s been invested in over years can be magnificent. Especially if you maybe get diagnosed with some sort of critical illness.
22:14
Matt Bell
Yeah, well, it’s just, it’s not even so much from a foreman or a team leader. Like it’s, you know, we’ve got anybody. Yeah, yeah, we’ve got 85 staff now. I can’t, you know, four man crews. Like, I can’t run, you know, 25 crews myself. You need to have, I always think of the movie office space, but you need to have middle management. Like, you know, you don’t.
22:37
Rob
PC load letter.
22:39
Matt Bell
Yeah.
22:40
Rob
What does that mean?
22:43
Matt Bell
But that’s what it comes down to. You have to have supervisors, you have to have project managers, you have to have other people that are involved that are able to share the burden of actually running a profitable and successful business.
22:56
Rob
So, I mean, this is. I totally couldn’t agree more. Actually, one thing, quick, not quick, but to explain on you meant invest in people. You said monetary. Okay. Make sure you’re paying people. Right. Like, don’t tell anybody you can’t get $2 an hour raise if they’re good folks. But you also said training, and this has been a common thread in the most successful people we’ve ever interviewed, whether it’s landscape or any industry, training is like, hugely impactful in success, retention, helping people grow. So what do you guys do over gellers to train folks?
23:30
Matt Bell
So we seek out a lot of training from our suppliers. So I love that it’s affordable. It’s very affordable. Sometimes they won’t even charge for it.
23:42
Rob
But they’re helping install their products.
23:45
Matt Bell
Exactly. So it’s a win. We will. So we have two types of training. So we do a lot of. We call them lunch and learns with our design or a project manager’s team. We’ll reach out to a supplier. Let’s use an example. Belgard. We’ll say, you know what? We want to come and get the latest and greatest from Belgard paving stone. We’d like, you know, and we’re an established company, you know, hey, we’d like you to take us to lunch. So let’s go somewhere for a nice lunch. Let’s get the design team and my project managers out and we’re going to give you 45 minutes to talk to us about everything new and exciting from Belgarde and how we can start to implement it and use it within our designs. Awesome. Great. Easy, traditional office style training when it comes to field staff.
24:27
Matt Bell
We’ll do the exact same thing, but we’ll try and do it on site. So you know what? We want you to come out to site. We’re using a new product. We’re going to take a break from the other, you know, six or seven job sites we have and maybe we don’t get every staff member down, but.
24:42
Rob
You’re getting a big chunk.
24:43
Matt Bell
Yeah, we’ll ask all the foremen. Set your crews up for the next 2 hours, come down to Braden site and we’re going to review this new product. Sales reps down there, he’s going to go over it with us. Takes an hour, but, you know, so it’s an hour of lost productivity across our foreman, but we’re going to make. Yeah, we’re going to make that hour up tenfold by now. When they get that product, they know how to effectively use it. Same thing in the spring, you know, like a really clever thing that actually our maintenance division manager, Jackson rolled out this year is he approached a couple of. We used to do some training at the shop for our maintenance staff. It was okay. It wasn’t great.
25:23
Matt Bell
So he reached out to about five or six of our large style estate properties and said, hey, we’re going to come do your spring cleanup for you. We’re going to do every startup for the yard, but I’m going to have 20 guys down there. I’m going to have 25 staff members. We’re going to do training on your yard. I promise you it’s going to be the best spring cleanup you’ve ever had because we have 25 staff there. If it’s not, you know, if it’s not, let us know. We’ll comp you the entire cost for it. But, but we’re going to do our training on site.
25:56
Matt Bell
And it was night and day difference, so now we’ll figure out they’re not getting like five minutes with a trimmer around the shop tree, you know, hey, you’re going to go trim next to somebody who’s experienced and they’re going to walk with you for the next 30 minutes until you get it down.
26:12
Rob
And then we’re going to real on the site training. Like, there’s no, like, messing around, theoretical anything?
26:20
Matt Bell
No, we’re there. You know, we’re grateful that we have excellent clients that allow us to do that. It was a smashing success. Clients, hey, best cleanup I’ve ever had. Staff again, real world experience. So, yeah, it was a win. And then for us, like, yes, we’re slow, but at least there’s some revenue on our training day now, you know, we’re still, at least we have some money coming in, which as an owner makes it a little bit easier to.
26:49
Rob
Swallow for training, especially at the beginning of the season.
26:52
Matt Bell
Yeah.
26:54
Rob
Okay. So we’ve got invest in people, monetary training, doing it on site. Very cool. Whoever your maintenance manager is, like, pat in the back, that’s super cool. We’ll probably have to start the podcast off with that little bite so that people want to watch the rest of it because that’s just, I haven’t heard anybody. We’re into dozens of interviews with people. No one’s talked about that. So I really appreciate you sharing. All right. Financial structure, ownership, regardless of landscape, what do you share with business owners about getting their affairs in order?
27:28
Matt Bell
So great question when you start a business. When I started my business, I was told that I needed three people to kind of have in my corner, so to speak. I needed to have a banker, so a representative from wherever I’m going to do my banking. I needed to have a lawyer, somebody that could maybe assist with my contracts, my business registration, things like that. And I needed to have an accountant who would be able to file my corporate taxes and things like that. The reality is they are and different for everybody again. But in my situation, the circumstance, I still have a relationship with all three of them that I originally met with 20 years ago, back when I was just even thinking of getting started. But they’re looking out for my business interests.
28:23
Matt Bell
They’re not particularly or not specifically looking out for my own personal interest in terms of my world of mat financial planning or Matt’s financial planning. So for myself, I was extremely fortunate. I had a friend in the financial planning industry and I was able to meet with him at a young age and put in place some products and some financial tools that are essential to my growth now. So were able to. And corporate structure is going to be different, whether in the US or Canada, and different things like that. So, you know, in Canada I was able to with him and then looping my lawyer and accounted back into things.
29:11
Matt Bell
We were able to structure a family trust and set some things up so that we can take advantage of multiplying our capital gains exemption in the future across some multiple trust members or family members even more so now when we talk about the recent increase in capital gains tax with the federal government. So even more important now, we’re able to structure corporately, some family trusts, some holding companies, operating companies, things like that are very cost effective to do when you’re in your infancy. They can be burdensome and expensive to try and do later. A lot of landscapers get involved and they just run as sole proprietors, kind of owner operator type corporate, and they.
29:53
Rob
Get towards five, six, $7 million in revenue. And then all of a sudden they’re trying to like rewind and back it all up into these corporate structures. And it’s almost negates the reason to do it in the first place.
30:03
Matt Bell
Yeah, you lose that, you lose the tax advantage, you lose the benefit of doing it. So I was able to structure that a lot young, at a low cost, way before I really needed it. Where now you look at what exit strategy would be in 20 years. Well, it’s very valuable to have that set up. When I did the second kind of group of conversations, I had involved a lot about life insurance and the different insurance products and stuff like that out there. When you’re 22 or 23, you can take on the world, you’re invincible, you’re never ever gonna die. You can drink 20 beers in a night and wake up and go to work the next morning.
30:43
Rob
It doesn’t sound like a voice of experience at all.
30:46
Matt Bell
Yeah, exactly. It’s, you know, the mentality and what just your body can physically do when you’re in your twenties is such an opposite conversation from discussing, you know, hey, I’m gonna die one day. Life insurance, things like that. But the reality is I purchased life insurance probably more than I did, but I was hopeful that my business would grow and I would need it eventually. And then I got sick, and I’m still sick to this day, and I can’t buy more life insurance. That’s never going to be an option for me. I am uninsurable in the eyes of the financial world. But part of business is taking on debt. And I know there’s some guys in the states that are very active on social media, don’t do debt, save for everything, blah, blah. Hey, when interest rates are 0%, I think you’re crazy.
31:36
Matt Bell
Pay on debt. I think you can accelerate your.
31:39
Rob
It’s amazing to get rich. It’s brilliant to get rich on someone else’s money.
31:46
Matt Bell
I like that. That’s a good phrase. It’s silly not to. If I can pay a loan at 8% and that puts another crew on the road, that’s going to gross 40% margins. Well, like, why would you not do that? If the work and the demand is there? So. But with that taking on debt now, I have a wife, I have a young son. I do live with. With cancer. And irregardless of whether I live with cancer or not, I’m in my thirties now, and I’m soon going to be in my forties or my fifties. And there will come a point in time when I pass away, when I’m no longer here. And in some cases that happens without any notice, you step out in the morning, you get hit by a bus.
32:28
Matt Bell
Now, it’s very difficult for me to take on more debt if I know that I’d be leaving my spouse with that debt in a business that she has no interest in running or operating. And now she’s left with debt, a business she has to sell, which is going to be a complicated transaction anyways. It could take years to close. It could be a very messy circumstance. But because I did proper corporate structuring, because I was able to purchase some insurance products and different things like that, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, Gellers is fine. Gellers can continue to be successful. We have ownership set in place to take over. Gellers is going to be. You know, it could run better than with me right now. Who knows? My wife has looked after, my son is looked after.
33:16
Matt Bell
I know that they’re not going to be burdened with any debt or anything like that. And if I didn’t have the conversation, and I think it’s, you know, again, Canada or us, there’s going to be different terminology, but I think that conversation still needs to take place between, yeah.
33:32
Rob
And it’s the same.
33:34
Matt Bell
Yeah. At its core, you’re right. It’s. It’s a conversation between a business owner and a financial planner or somebody in that sphere or realm that can speak to how being an entrepreneur and a business owner is going to affect your personal wealth building and just your personal financial picture.
33:54
Rob
And so there’s a lot of financial planners in the world, and some of them are shit and maybe most of them are not, to try to, like, you know, put a broad stroke on a profession, but there are some that are amazing. Do you have any tips for the audience about how to find a good one?
34:11
Matt Bell
I’m a big fan of fee for service. Don’t make money when you sell me something, make me money by providing advice. So if you’re in the financial world, Rob, and you only get paid if I buy the product you put in front of me, you’re inherently going to be incentivized to make me buy that.
34:31
Rob
Product and your higher commission better for me.
34:34
Matt Bell
And you’re probably going to put products in front of me that have higher commission or pay structures that you like.
34:39
Rob
Whereas, because I’ve got a kid and I’ve got a wife, you got to.
34:43
Matt Bell
Look out for yourself. So, whereas if you’re a financial planner that says, hey, Matt, you know what? It’s going to take me $2,500 to review your books, your corporate structure, and come back to you with some recommendations. You’re going to pay me that no matter what. I’m also going to put some products in front of you that maybe you want to take on. Maybe you don’t. And maybe, yeah, maybe you don’t even want to take them on with me. You know, maybe to be super safe, I’m going to make some recommendations. You can go down and talk to this guy, but that way you’re getting honest and earnest advice. So. And there are good guys on both sides and, pardon me, good women. Good guys on both sides.
35:19
Rob
Yeah.
35:21
Matt Bell
But I think if you remove the incentive of them having to sell you something, it can be a much more welcoming conversation.
35:31
Rob
Love it. And also, if you’ve got a good relationship for a lawyer for a while, they usually have a good handle. And that’s best thing on who’s good because they don’t want to refer people that are snake oil salespeople.
35:42
Matt Bell
Yeah, exactly. Working within your sphere of influence. Or your point.
35:46
Rob
You have a banker, the accountant and the lawyer.
35:48
Matt Bell
Yeah. And they all need to work together.
35:50
Rob
Maybe. And maybe one day entrepreneurs will say marketing partner. But that’s fine. We’re working on it.
35:55
Matt Bell
Yeah. Hey, that. There’s a part. There’s a part there for sure.
35:57
Rob
Well, it’s a. I mean, just for. For quick rant, but like, okay, the banker lends you money when you need it. Typically when you need it, they’ll give you lots of money when you don’t, but you don’t necessarily take it. The accountant counts your money and the lawyer makes sure your money is protected. But out of the three professionals that are around, every entrepreneur, nobody helps you make money. And I just think that’s interesting. So we move on to this idea of. Of mindset you did, you know, scarcity, abundance, which is huge. Some will, some won’t. So what next? I mean, that’s words in your mouth, but kind of the idea of stop dwelling, you know, move on to the next thing and expect the best from the world. Maybe plan for the worst, but expect the best.
36:39
Rob
Training, investing in people, monetary and, you know, field service, the financial structure. I mean, there’s a lot here. If there’s a resource, a person, a podcast, a speaker, an author, that has kind of hit you, like, boom, that was. That’s worthwhile. One or two that you’d share with the audience that they should go check out.
37:00
Matt Bell
I would. So, honestly, I’m not a big podcast guy. I’m not a big motivational reader. I would say I have learned most of my best business lessons from, actually, other business owners in the Manitoba community.
37:18
Rob
Beautiful.
37:19
Matt Bell
Which is. And on it. So being a part of our. My provincial landscape association, every other. It’s so funny. There’s. There’s so many other business owners just in our landscape sector that are more successful than Geller’s in many different ways. And, you know, nobody has everything figured out. But to be at the top of the game or even in that top 20%, you have one or two things figured out. And having this, you know, I really focus when I’m at corporate events or meeting people. You know, they’ve got one or two little tidbits that you can take. You don’t need to read the guy that, you know, the book of the guy who built virgin Airlines or something like that. Those same lessons are in your own.
38:05
Rob
Community, you know, within your own space.
38:08
Matt Bell
Yeah. And you can see it and I can relate to it better. So being able to sit down and have a beer or a cup of coffee with somebody and, you know, hey, I’m having this trouble client, what have you done in the past? And you’ll get three, maybe two or three different answers across the board when you talk to different people. But there’s wisdom in it. They’ve dealt with it. They may be a company a third of the size of mine or ten times as big, but at the core, to reference the term, it’s the same issue. So there’s three or four other business owners in just in Winnipeg that are now my friends, some in landscape, some not, that I’ve learned and been able to pick up the exact same lessons from, you know, a published author or something. They just.
38:52
Matt Bell
They’re not published. They’re not an author, but they’re willing to have. Yeah. And tell me, you know, hey, I had a nightmare client in the past, and this is, you know, some, these are some ways that I dealt with it. This one went really well. This one didn’t go well. So I’d maybe choose this one and, you know, then I go and replicate it myself and, hey, what do you know? That worked and cool.
39:14
Rob
Like Bruce Lee, right? Discards what or take what’s useful, describes what’s useless and your own.
39:19
Matt Bell
Yeah. We’re not trying to reinvent the wheel here. So I would, you know, and then being involved in CNLA, you know, like, I actually, I listened to the podcast that he was on, George Yuvari there from Oriole and knowledge tree. Like, you know, I’ve seen him speak at a couple different events. You know, George is, you know, we’re, I think by numbers, we’re. We’re a bigger company than George, but, man, do I learn a lot. And from just listening to him, you know, he’s lived the game for 30 years.
39:50
Rob
Yeah.
39:50
Matt Bell
So of course he’s going to have more knowledge. So just being able to pick little tidbits from other business owners, I think, in your community, I think there’s this push with social media now. Buy a course, do coaching, read this guy, blah, blah, like a good old fashioned coffee shop on a Saturday morning, going to my local golf course and seeing, you know, such and such from this business and being able to convince for 15 minutes, like, I learn more from that than I do in a lot of other books. And I can relate to it a lot because I see it in my community.
40:19
Rob
I love it, man. And in that, I mean, you mentioned a few times, but like, the associations, whether it’s provincial, state, national, I mean, those people kind of congregate. They kind of come together. And there’s one of the things I have to say, like, we’ve worked in a couple of different industries over the years. And by a couple, I mean like maybe six, seven, whatever. The green industry has this weird co operation, like this sharing, this openness. I haven’t seen anything like it before, and I just think it’s amazing. It’s like, it’s a special piece about being in the green industry. I think I. That’s pretty amazing.
40:58
Matt Bell
Yeah. People are willing to share, like, I think being involved provincially or canadian wide, even in just other business groups, you know, I choose not to get involved in like the quote unquote referral or network groups, you know, hey, Rob, your market, you know.
41:14
Rob
Yeah, names, but I get what you’re saying.
41:16
Matt Bell
Yeah. I don’t need to be involved in referral groups, but, you know, lunches or groups where I can get together with other like minded business owners and just literally bullshit talk about what went well, what they’re struggling with, and be able to share ideas. That is where I’ve gotten a ton of insight and benefit over the years.
41:36
Rob
Amazing, man. Matt, thank you for doing this. For everybody’s listening. I said it was a unique perspective and without a doubt, you did not fall short of that. So I really appreciate you part of the show and everyone. Thanks for listening to this episode of the IM landscape Growth podcast.
41:52
Matt Bell
Awesome. Thanks for having me, Rob.