Hiring Landscapers? Jill Odom Says If They Bring a Pocket Knife, They Might Be a Keeper

00:00
Rob Murray
Welcome back to another episode of the IM Landscape Growth podcast. I have a very special and unique guest today. Pumped to have you on. It’s Jill Odom.

00:43
Jill Odom
Hi, Rob.

00:45
Rob Murray
Thank you for doing this. Jill’s been a part of the National Associated Landscape Professionals association for better part of five years and has a pretty amazing track record when it comes to, like, everything content with a bit of a specialization, I think, with recruiting. Like, is that fair to say that you’ve been around that world, too, before you entered the. The green industry?

01:09
Jill Odom
No, actually, I’ve only been covering the green industry from a content perspective.

01:14
Rob Murray
Yeah, but before you were part of nalp, right? You were with Randall Riley.

01:18
Jill Odom
Yeah. So, that company recruits truckers, but they also have some publications that they split off recently. They have two different companies now. Fusible is where the content went. But I was the editor of Total Landscape Care for about four and a half years with them.

01:33
Rob Murray
Oh, badass. So you’re almost like a decade into writing about the green industry, which is cool. And so that’s. I think that’s why I’m pumped to have you on, because, you know when you. When you have an opportunity to speak with an entrepreneur, some of them are more experienced and have peer groups and talk to others, but not many have the amount of or the width or the breadth of experience talking to members all across the country like you’ve had. So I’m pumped to get your head on this. I know we had a quick little question about it. However, there was a cool thing before that you were talking to somebody else about recruiting: at some point, we might have to get this anecdote out about this pocket knife philosophy, which I thought, yeah. All right, well, closed notes.

02:15
Rob Murray
Give the crowd a little context in terms of what you have been up to for the last decade and your experience in the green industry. Industry.

02:21
Jill Odom
Oh, my goodness. So, to summarize my career, I started out knowing absolutely nothing about landscaping, but everyone was really gracious in the industry, being willing to talk to me in general and sharing their stories and struggles. I love highlighting just different Companies that are doing unique things, ways to treat their people better, and ways to be stewards of the environment. Everyone has a different passion and reason for getting into it. And some people love plants. But a lot of the folks I talk to are like, I’m doing this for the people. Like, I care about my employees. I want them to be able to go on and buy cars, buy homes, get their kids through college, and all that kind of stuff. And they’re so open to sharing.

03:08
Jill Odom
I know that I haven’t worked in any other industry, so I can’t compare it, but my CEO has said multiple times, he’s like, this is not normal for businesses to be this open.

03:18
Rob Murray
It’s, you know, interesting, you say that. So we were just at the Landscape Ontario Congress, which is, you know, maybe top three or four shows in North America, and were. I was speaking to somebody there on their executive and talking about how Intrigue is a company. We had niched in a couple of other spaces. One was in credit unions and insurance. This is many moons ago. Then, we were in HVAC for a brief moment. But it was all very well, how can I say it? Boring. The membership wasn’t necessarily the most engaged or fun, but no one was willing to share best practices. And then we hit the landscape industry, whatever, maybe seven years ago, and we’re just like, whoa, everybody’s here to help. It’s like the rising tide raises all ships to approach. So, I think what you said is spot on.

04:04
Rob Murray
It is unique.

04:05
Jill Odom
Yeah. That’s probably why I love it so much. They tell me I learn something new every day, just like what we were talking about earlier with them. I was just like, I would never have thought of the pocket knife anecdote that way.

04:18
Rob Murray
No, it’s great. And everybody listens, like, what the heck’s going on with this pocket knife? Trust me; just listen to this podcast. We’ll get to it before we leave. All right, so the theme of the podcast is, what’s the primary growth constraint holding entrepreneurs back in the green industry? You have a pretty cool take on this, so why don’t you just walk us through it? Then we’ll. We’ll dissect it.

04:37
Jill Odom
Okay, so my answer is it depends. I think that you could probably break it down into three different buckets depending on the size of your organization. So, for the smaller companies, and I would say maybe 2 million and below, you might get categorized as this. I’ve noticed when I talk to companies like this they. They have Great ideas. And they. And they want to grow and stuff, but the thing holding them back is processes because they have to get how they want to get their stuff done, like out in the paper, get it formalized, get it organized like I. So that they can replicate it and grow. It sounds really easy. You’re just like, well, just do it. But I think that they’re having. There’s. They’re working so much in the business that you’re just like, y.

05:25
Jill Odom
When am I supposed to have time to sit back and codify this? So.

05:30
Rob Murray
And then train it.

05:31
Jill Odom
Yes.

05:31
Rob Murray
Not only. They not only get out of their heads but also get it into other people’s heads.

05:36
Jill Odom
And. And training, I think, is almost something that stays challenging no matter how big you get. Because they’re just like. I’ve talked to people, and they’re like, yeah, we know safety is important, but wheels kind of fall off halfway through the year because they’re just so busy. So if you. New people. Yeah, you did that rodeo at the beginning of the year. But what about the newer people who will bring it on later? They don’t seem to get as much training. Right. But you said something else that made me. I can’t remember what it was.

06:04
Rob Murray
We’ll get it out of their head and get it into others, but it’s okay. You said 0 to 2 million is processes. And it’s something that they really got to focus on. And if they can’t get it figured out, then they’re going to kind of bang up against this ceiling because it’s difficult to do so. Because they’re still going to be on the tools or at least managing the field.

06:18
Jill Odom
Yeah. So I would say for medium guys, and I don’t really have a revenue range for this, I would probably get enough people on staff to get to that next level because, obviously, you don’t want to just have overhead. But there becomes a point where the people on your staff that you have currently physically cannot do any more work. So you have to find more people. And everyone knows it’s hard to find the type of people that you want for it. Now, I think one of the difficulties is some people are looking for that experience. I think you need to check that at the door. You need to just be willing to train them, get them to what you want them to be, and look more for their attitude. Their work ethic, their. Their desire to learn.

07:09
Jill Odom
And it’s like you can make them into whatever you need. It’s like the things that you can’t train is the desire to be there or the fact that they match with your culture and your values. Because you can’t make someone have integrity, either have it or they don’t.

07:25
Rob Murray
Yeah, it’s really fascinating that you brought that up. Well, first of all, I think good advice is always well-timed. But I was speaking to a gentleman yesterday who said that he’s trying to build a strong culture in his organization because it’s just not that strong right now. And he’s like, well, what do you recommend I do? And I said, well, who’s the bag? You know, if you have a bad culture, it’s typically because there are people that aren’t doing cool. So, who’s the person that’s it all up? And he was like, well, you know, there may be one or two. And I was like, well if you want to build a strong culture, they gotta go.

08:04
Rob Murray
And to your point, they could be experienced landscapers, but they don’t fit what this person’s trying to do on a day-to-day basis with the way they operate and how they go about being the people that they’re being. So I think that’s really insightful. Just because they’re experienced doesn’t mean they’re good.

08:24
Jill Odom
Yeah. And so I would just say, like, focus on getting those people who, you know, work with your culture and everything and get them to where you need them to be. That way, you can continue to grow. First, it is just like, oh, we can’t find experienced people. We’re just stuck here. And it’s like you got to make them. There’s just no way around it.

08:45
Rob Murray
Yeah. Which is another interesting piece because training and development seems to be a bit of a common theme no matter what size you’re at. Kind of what you said earlier.

08:53
Jill Odom
Yeah.

08:54
Rob Murray
So then you’ve got your processes to start and then you’ve got your, you know, find right people and build them for your medium folk. And then as you get larger, what do you see as the thing holding people back there?

09:05
Jill Odom
The larger one? This may be a little bit of a hot take, but the risk of losing your culture, like when you get so big, you’re just like. Obviously, you, as the owner, are not going to be able to have FaceTime with every single person in your organization. It’s just not possible. But you have to choose managers that will carry that culture for you and just try to stay true to it and pick things that can scale because, like, Some of the stuff that you do when you’re smaller, like, yeah, that’s great, but is it something that you can carry on when you get to that larger size or is it going to be like your long term employees are going to be here like, oh man, you remember when they used to do XYZ, and now we don’t do any of that stuff.

09:49
Jill Odom
And it just feels like it’s a generic corporate culture, just trying to find what makes you and keeping that through line no matter how big you get. I know that’s hard, but it’s just, it’s got to be a priority because you’re going to start bleeding people if they’re just like, this isn’t the company that I started with.

10:09
Rob Murray
Right. And that’s an interesting balance, though, right? Because it literally isn’t the company they started with. And so, how do you stay true to your culture? And, then, maybe that’s a big part of core values. Like if you’re, even if you do simplify what you’re doing from a business point of view, if you’re still doing it the way you used to do it in terms of, you know, customer-centric approach or safety is a priority, or, you know, everybody’s got everybody’s back or transparent communication, whatever the core values are that you live by not losing them as you get big.

10:42
Jill Odom
Yeah.

10:42
Rob Murray
So that’s a big deal. And I think a lot of people can struggle with that because, you know, a small business, say 1.5 million, versus a larger business, say 25 million. It’s easy to be nimble; it’s easy to move quickly. It’s easy to see what’s going on every single day because you’re there with everybody.

11:00
Jill Odom
Right.

11:00
Rob Murray
And then all of a sudden, there’s, you know, maybe 150 people on a daily basis trying to do something. There’s no way it’s going to be the same. How do you keep that ability to move? That’s interesting. So if we’re to go through these three stages, as you mentioned, the first one is process, and the second one is find and train. Third one’s, you know, stay true to yourself at some level. Do you have some stories of folks you’ve seen do this and breakthrough and like what they did to do that?

11:29
Jill Odom
I’m trying to think. I wish I had picked out specific companies because I know I’ve talked to people who’ve done all of these, but processes I’m trying To think of even more.

11:38
Rob Murray
Just any stories that come to mind of somebody that you’re seeing doing something right now, and you’re just like, man, they really do get it right. Like, I know people are struggling with this thing, but I see a couple of people, and they’re just like, you know, these guys, through and through the years, have been getting it right. Anybody comes to mind, and maybe a story you could tell, something that they may share.

11:56
Jill Odom
I think one of them. It’s funny; it’s just the guy that I interviewed earlier. Yeah, he. They have already booked out their entire year of 20 and 25 for construction.

12:06
Rob Murray
Boom.

12:07
Jill Odom
They have grown from 20 to 40 employees over the past couple of years. And he, like, I asked him, why do your long-term employees stay with you? And he was telling me it’s because they’re transparent, and when they say something, they do it. Versus it’s like a lot of other companies, they may say like, oh, these are our core values. But if they’re not following it, that sort of cognitive dissonance rubs people the wrong way, where you’re just like, okay, you said that this was important, but you’re not following it. Like, don’t say safety matters. And then you’re just kind of like, oh, it’s whatever gets the job done. Kind of mindset, you know, well, and.

12:47
Rob Murray
Then, everything else is degraded. Right. How can I trust you with anything if you say this is important and then you don’t follow through? You know, do you say you’re gonna do. When you say you’re gonna do it? As much as it seems like a pretty simple approach, it’s massively important. So that’s cool. And where is that person? Geographically speaking?

13:06
Jill Odom
He is in Dublin, Georgia.

13:08
Rob Murray
Oh, beautiful. Oh, I’m off to Atlanta next week. I’m pumped. I don’t know what it is. Yeah, yeah.

13:14
Jill Odom
Okay.

13:15
Rob Murray
Have you been?

13:16
Jill Odom
I have not. I tend to get. Just go to our NLP stuff.

13:19
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s cool. I mean, that’s going to keep you busy. I just. The food in Georgia, to me, is just like the best. And there are two restaurants in Atlanta that I’m specifically in. I haven’t been in about five years. I’m just.

13:30
Jill Odom
So what do you eat?

13:32
Rob Murray
Well, I mean, I’ll eat good food. So, in this case, there’s. Okay, I have to figure out what they are called. Anybody listening to this is Poor Calvin’s. It’s like an Asian fusion restaurant in some random house that’s Converted into a restaurant in Duluth. It’s about 25 minutes from where we’re staying. The sync conference. Then, the other one is this, like a rib shack in Atlanta. And it’s just like, stick to your bones, like, so good. It’s like this galley with live music, and it’s just the best.

14:02
Jill Odom
Okay. I was gonna be worried when you. When you start with, oh, I’m going to Georgia and I’m getting Asian food. I’m just like, you’re not gonna get Southern fish?

14:09
Rob Murray
I like. Of course. No, I think it’s called a Fat Matt.

14:11
Jill Odom
Okay. There you go.

14:13
Rob Murray
Yeah, it’s gotta be Fat Matt’s.

14:14
Jill Odom
Fat in the name, you know? You know, they’re gonna do you right.

14:16
Rob Murray
It’s definitely Fat Matt’s. Yeah. So I, like, those two are on my. Like, must do. Like, I’m gonna miss the conference if I have to go eat at these places. Yeah. So they’re in Georgia, too. That’s cool. All right, well, let’s. Let’s switch gears a little bit. Like, you’re. You’re in. You’re in content, right? I mean, one of them. One of. One of the main priorities of anything written or content-oriented is engaging an audience. And. And so, you know, a lot of people, when it comes to the idea around what’s holding people back from a growth point of view, it’s really flipped a little bit in the last couple of years. You know, there was no doubt the number one answer in terms of volume asking these people whilst doing the podcast was, I can’t find people. Right.

15:03
Rob Murray
You know, we’re growing like crazy. My growth constraint is finding stuff. But in the last six, 12, 18 months, it’s flipped a little bit. And now sales and marketing seem to be a bit more like. For example, the people booked out for all of 2025. It’s rare air. Like, there’s not a lot of folks booked out now. There’s. Some people are better off this year than they were last year, but they’re still trying to figure out how to feed the beast. Do you know how I get more leads? So, when it comes to content and engaging with audiences, what have you found that works well? And, like, what can you say to somebody listening to this about their content?

15:34
Jill Odom
Approach as far as content for, like, if landscapers are trying to beef up their content presence and appeal to leads, I think just presenting yourself as a professional, as an expert, like, we’re going to walk you through whatever sort of topics you’re trying to cater to and being a resource first build their trust. And then it’s like after you’ve helped them in all these sorts of ways, then, like, when they’re ready for that project, they’re like, I’m gonna call that company because they know what they’re talking about.

16:09
Rob Murray
I love it. It’s. It’s humanistic, right? Like, oftentimes, I find. So, we get a lot of people inquiring about us for social media help. And which we’re happy to, like, you know, understand and help execute, but really what they’re looking for is customers. More often than not, if someone calls a company like us, they’re looking for customers. And. And so we had a conversation maybe a week ago with somebody, and I was like, if you were at a networking event, you know, in your community or. Or at a fundraiser, what are the odds when someone says, you know, they’re thinking about in their backyard, all you say is, I’ll get you a quote? Here, here’s my business card. You know, call me tomorrow. I’ll come to your house. I’ll give you a quote.

16:54
Jill Odom
Mm.

16:55
Rob Murray
It’s a little aggressive, right? And so. And no one would really do that. I mean, somebody might, but they’re not gonna last long. And so it’s like, okay, cool. Like, have you done one before? Do you have any problems? And, like, a human would probably try to understand the situation better, try to figure out what they can do to help them. In your words, be a resource. So if that’s the case and people want to take that approach, how do they execute on being a resource online with content?

17:22
Jill Odom
Well, first, you need to figure out who’s your audience, who’s your ideal lead, and who you are trying to cater to. Because that’s who you need to be writing the content for. Like, if I am Mary Sue and I want to put an outdoor living space in my backyard, what are all the things that she’s going to care about? Because you don’t need to write about something that they’re not going to care about until maybe, like, way down the line. Because some things you’re just like, we’ve been in business 30 years. That’s great. They need.

17:54
Rob Murray
No one gives a.

17:56
Jill Odom
Hey, your word’s not mine.

17:59
Rob Murray
Yeah, well, straight up, though, it’s, oh, please keep going. That’s great.

18:04
Jill Odom
It’s like they care. Like, how? How much is this going to even cost me? Like, ballpark. Because, you know, the price is. It is important, and you may be saving them a lot of time if you’re just kind of like, hey, if you want a fire pit installed, it’s going to start at this amount, and it’ll change based on these sort of factors. And then they’re like, okay, now I know. Either A, I can’t afford one, or B, I need to start saving for this. Or they’ll look further on your website and see, hey, they do financing; I can still have my fire pit, which a lot of people need to look into financing more. It’s like residential customers aren’t made of money. Like, they need to spread it out well.

18:43
Rob Murray
It also creates a bigger marketplace because it makes it more accessible. Right. Like there are people that have money, don’t get me wrong, interest rates or not, there are a class of customers and a marketplace that’s willing to pay. The thing is, though, and this is coming up more and more, is that the people who want to invest in their outdoor space and have lots of money have invested in their outdoor space. So, yeah, I think what you bring up is a really good point. How do you make it more accessible for people?

19:06
Jill Odom
Yeah.

19:07
Rob Murray
And I also love the fact that we talk about this concept all the time. People care about only two things, one of two things, and that’s it. It’s either accomplishing their goals or solving their problems. And so the idea that you’ve been in business for 30 years has some merit to your point. Yes, but it’s only in the idea that says, once you’re ready, I can help you solve your problem, I can help you accomplish your goals. Because I’ve been doing it for so long, we don’t necessarily need to start with that.

19:37
Rob Murray
And in the case of, you know, Mary Sue, she may be trying to figure out how to host a family, or she might be trying to figure out how to host a giant party, or she might be figuring out how to get her kids outside, or she might be trying to figure out how to have her grandkids come over more. These are all very different situations and content approaches.

19:58
Jill Odom
And on the lawn care side, I think it’s always so helpful when you have those blog articles that break down. It’s just like, hey, my grass is turning brown, and they run through. Like it could be this, like if you see these sorts of things and just let them even try to self-diagnose it just so that they can have a little bit more peace of mind or know, oh crap, I’ve got armyworms. I need to call a company right now.

20:23
Rob Murray
You Know, I just love that you know what army worms are because I’ve had them. That’s not good.

20:30
Jill Odom
No.

20:31
Rob Murray
So then when you’re cruising through the industry and talking to all these entrepreneurs, has there been anything that stood out as like, oh, they’re doing it right.

20:42
Jill Odom
Okay, I hope that they don’t get embarrassed, but Local Roots Landscaping up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, I’ve talked to them several different times. One of the things that I absolutely love about them is how much they care about their people. And I think it was them who said at the end of an interview where it’s just like, they’re human beings. It’s like we care about them, like, as a whole, like, we want, like, we’re going to check on them, you know, beyond the, like, hey, how you doing? Good. Like that kind of thing. Like, they actually want to know what.

21:13
Rob Murray
What are you doing this weekend?

21:14
Jill Odom
Yeah, just like, are you okay? Like, how can we do better? How can we support you better? That kind of thing. Also, they’ve just been very serious about the whole true-to-your-word thing. Like I said, they said we’re not gonna work Saturdays. They don’t work Saturdays. Now, if you are set up where you’re gonna work six days a week, I think you need to tell people from hiring to know that, to expect that. But also, if you say you’re a five-day-a-week company, don’t go back on that all the time because they thought that they were going to get XYZ, and you’re not following that. And then it comes across as just like if you’re not keeping your word on this, what else are you not going to keep your word on?

21:56
Rob Murray
Well, and if, in my experience, when someone breaks, it’s like, well, probably everything. Because how you do anything is kind of like how you do everything right. It’s tough to build that trust when you break it like that. So this is a company called Local Roots Landscaping that’s really taking care of their people.

22:12
Jill Odom
Yeah. And they’re super interested in being innovative. For example, they’re always trying out new equipment and new tools so that they can work smarter, not harder. Like, they have tested out that sort of vacuum suck thing for moving like heavy pavers and things because, you know, you want to finish a job and not be absolutely wiped out after it, and so you’re able to work somewhere longer where it’s not like destroying your body.

22:39
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s a big deal. Talk about going to your, you know, keeping long-term staff and not trashing their bodies. Probably a good start in the right direction. Yeah, yeah, that’s cool. And if I’m going to pick between that company, another company, or a local area, and somebody’s got my back, literally like physically has my back, I think I might be more prone to go check it out.

23:01
Jill Odom
And it’s working for them because at different points in their company, like timeline, they have had a literal wait list of employees who want to work for them.

23:10
Rob Murray
That means your growth constraint of hiding and trying to find staff is no longer there. How cool is that? That’s amazing. And then, have you seen anybody? Have you been going through, you know, your interviews and that kind of stuff? From a marketing point of view, it’s doing something kind of cool and unique that maybe this audience should check out.

23:26
Jill Odom
I think that Loving does really cool marketing. They just have this really interesting presence. Like on LinkedIn, I just, a couple of days ago, I saw it where they were like, and when our employees are Instagram models or whatever and it’s just regular dudes out in the field, some of them are like cheesing it up. So I’m just like. But it’s real, it’s not stock photography.

23:48
Rob Murray
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so speak to that quickly.

23:51
Jill Odom
Okay.

23:51
Rob Murray
Stock photography versus real photography, even if it’s not perfect, I think that you.

23:56
Jill Odom
Should always take pictures of your actual people doing the job, your actual projects doing the job. Save up and pay for a photographer, even if it’s just for one shoot. Because if you have stock photography, it just, you’re gonna know because it’s.

24:10
Rob Murray
Well, because if it’s any good, everybody’s gonna use it. Yes.

24:13
Jill Odom
Because there’s always that turf installation one; I’ve seen it 5,000 times where it’s the hands rolling out the turf. And I’m just like, you don’t have any pictures of you guys actually doing this.

24:23
Rob Murray
Like, and there’s no way those hands have rolled out any turf. I’ve seen turf hands, and they don’t look like that.

24:28
Jill Odom
They don’t wear blue rubber gloves.

24:30
Rob Murray
Yeah, we’re not washing dishes here. Yeah, that’s cool. And like, you know, I’m not sure from your experience, but like, we’re seeing people doing full-day photo shoots for landscapers anywhere between 1500 bucks to 2500 bucks. Like, we’re not talking about a crazy amount of money. You know, three or four site visits, there are.

24:47
Jill Odom
Drost Landscape is going to be our level-up for February. They just sent me their pictures and I’m like, wow, these are fantastic. And she was like, oh, yeah. The guy who takes the pictures for used to be a landscaper, and now he takes them. Takes pictures professionally. I’m like Eugenius because he understands the landscape industry so much better than a regular photographer would. So he knows the angles; he knows what sort of shots to get.

25:11
Rob Murray
And I’m like, what was the name of that company?

25:13
Jill Odom
Sorry, Drost Landscape. They’re one of the ones that are part of the Mariani premier group.

25:18
Rob Murray
Drost. So Drost Landscape, anybody listening to this, go check out their pictures. One of the things, too, is like, if you’re going to hire a photographer, just show them those images. You know, if they’re done right with a good point of view and they look legit, then like, hey, here’s some shots we want to get from our properties. R and D, right? Rip off and duplicate. I mean, that’s. And, going back to the whole thing about a rising tide raises all ships like the idea that unless you’re competing directly with Ross, don’t do that. But, you know, the amount of people listening to this, Canada and the U.S. Most of them aren’t. That’s great. So you’ve got people taking real shots of people doing real work, which is obviously a thing. Please avoid stock photography if you want to check out a good example.

25:56
Rob Murray
Dross Landscaping’s got a good one. People are taking care of people who actually care. These are all things that you’re seeing people do, right? One of the things in all of the sizes of business is that it’s still going to be trained and developed. Because if anything, as a big business, if you’re not training and developing your leadership team to be leaders of your values, then you will lose your way. So I think there’s. There’s a lot. There’s a lot there, Jill. So, is there anything else that you want to share with the group that you know? Here’s a best practice that you see people maybe making a mistake on a regular basis. This is something that people should keep in mind when it comes to anything: content, writing people, whatever you see in the industry.

26:38
Jill Odom
I don’t know. I don’t want to come off high and mighty when I’ve never run a business in my life.

26:41
Rob Murray
But you’re good, though. But you see all these people doing all these things. I think you. Your observation is that they can take it with a grain of salt. But I think your perspective is valuable. I mean, you’re part of one of the largest organizations of landscape professionals in the world. So I think your opinion’s got some weight.

27:00
Jill Odom
I think if I had to sum it up in a nugget, it would just be kind of like figuring out who you are as a company, like why you’re doing it because I know that they’re like yours, why. Everyone’s like, yeah, okay, whatever. But really, you need to have that North Star because that drives everything else in your company, like who you decide to hire and where you grow next. Like, are you trying to be a regional thing? Are you trying to just stay in your niche, and you just want to be really good at it in that super small area? Because some people want to be really big and spread out, and then other people are just like, I just want to be the best company at this one thing. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

27:41
Jill Odom
And also defining your definition of success, I’ve started adding that question into our level-up features, and everyone has a different one, and I kind of love that because it’s not all about like, oh, we want to get to 100 million or something like that. Some of them, they just want to be an example of creating sustainable ecological landscapes that are beautiful and award winning. Like, that’s just as good.

28:07
Rob Murray
That’s cool. Yeah, that’s cool. Well, I, I think it’s a really great one for this audience to take away because a lot of times, and I hear this a lot at all different sizes of companies where they’re working like crazy to get the business to where it needs to go, but they don’t necessarily know what it’s going to do for them. And so it actually changes the dynamic of the business relationship because it’s almost like they’re working to serve the business instead of the business working to serve the entrepreneur.

28:36
Jill Odom
Right.

28:37
Rob Murray
And we take on all this risk. Right? Like you think about the liability around, you know, loans and capital for equipment and mortgages for shops, then the people and the safety and customers. Like, there’s so much risk on an entrepreneur’s shoulders. It’s too rare that people don’t necessarily start with a definition of success up front. So I think that’s a beautiful reminder for all people listening: what’s your definition of success? And well timed because we’re in January, it’s usually a good time to think about what’s the year going to look like. Yeah, one of the things that was really cool in a group I was just a part of was they said, what are your goals for the year? And everybody had them, no problem. Then, the next question was, what are you going to do to celebrate if you accomplish those goals?

29:26
Jill Odom
Oh, my God, yes.

29:28
Rob Murray
And everybody struggled to answer the question because no one had thought about it.

29:32
Jill Odom
Did you get to attend Elevate last year 100%? So you remember when Sean was talking about the happiness act like you keep moving the goalposts so you’re never going to be happy because you’re like, oh, I’ll be happy if I’m successful. But then, as soon as you reach that goal, you move it. And then you’re just like, well, crap, I got it. Like, you’re not celebrating it. Yeah, not being like, look at all this stuff I’ve already accomplished. It’s always just like, well, on to the next right.

30:00
Rob Murray
And I’m too busy thinking about something for myself. And that the facilitator of this group really challenged them to be like, well, if you accomplish this goal, this stretch goal, not only what are you going to do, but what are you going to do selfishly for you that makes all this worth it?

30:16
Jill Odom
Yeah.

30:16
Rob Murray
And it could be random, you know, materialistic things like I’m going to buy a 1967 Stingray Corvette, like, okay, cool, that’s great. Or it could be that I’m going to take my family on a once-in-a-lifetime vacation through the Pacific Rim. I just think it’s a beautiful piece that dovetails on. What you’re saying is, what does success mean to you not only in the long term but maybe also in the short term?

30:41
Jill Odom
Yeah. And I like that because when we did our interview a little while back for the marketing, we were talking about whether people should move on from just word of mouth.And you’re like, well, it depends on their goals and if they’re happy with where they’re at. Spend that money on vacation. Spend time. Yeah.

30:57
Rob Murray
Keep it going all day. Right. I just think that’s great. And all too often, I see people, you know, almost a slave to their company versus the other way around. All right, we can’t leave this audience hanging anymore. What’s the deal with this pocket knife? How does that apply to what they might consider when it comes to recruiting?

31:17
Jill Odom
Okay, so this is for an interview on recruiting and retaining long-term employees. What do you look for? And in an employee that will be more likely to stay with you long term? And this gentleman’s answer was a Pocket knife. And I was like, please elaborate. Why? Why a pocket knife? And he said it’s usually a sign that they’re very pragmatic. They understand the value of having a tool that. That can be useful in all these different situations. He’s talking about several different times that he’s been able to use it. It’s just like opening packages, opening mail, helping people get, like if they’re caught on something, just. Just all kinds of things. And just to have that tool usually means that you’re willing to help other people out as well.

32:00
Rob Murray
Yeah. That’s super cool. And, like, something I’ve never heard of at all.

32:05
Jill Odom
Yeah.

32:05
Rob Murray
And. And I love it.

32:06
Jill Odom
It’s definitely a Southern thing.

32:07
Rob Murray
Yeah, fair enough. That’s cool. Well, Georgia, right?

32:10
Jill Odom
Yeah.

32:11
Rob Murray
All right. Well, Joel, you’re the best. Thank you for doing this. One last question before we let you go. An author, speaker, some. Something that’s maybe given you some inspiration over the years that you’d like to share with the audience, as they should.

32:24
Jill Odom
Check out if they’re looking for marketing tips. I highly recommend Jay Schwindelson. He has the funniest emails ever. He will tell you stuff that’s performing well and not performing well as far as, like, subject lines, open rates, like, hey, quit saying the word webinar because no one engages with stuff. As soon as you say webinar, you can say live event and people will click on it. Not webinar.

32:50
Rob Murray
Yeah. Masterclass workshop. Not webinar.

32:53
Jill Odom
Yeah. And. He is also at the bottom of his emails. He’s like, I’m watching The Bachelor right now. And if you respond to him, he’ll tell you, like, you can be like, oh, that’s great. Or I’m watching this. And he’s like, oh, that’s so cool. Like, he’s. He’s becoming a professor now at the University of Florida. So I don’t know if he’s gonna have time to answer emails like that anymore, but he is great.

33:14
Rob Murray
And his name again, like a little.

33:15
Jill Odom
Eight-minute podcast, I think, too.

33:17
Rob Murray
He said Jay Swindelson or Schwedelson.

33:19
Jill Odom
Schwedelson.

33:24
Rob Murray
I was like, come on, she’ll help me out. Let’s see if I can get this for everybody before we sign off through media.

33:30
Jill Odom
I think you can find him in that way.

33:33
Rob Murray
Hold on, hold on. J. Schwedelson.

33:38
Jill Odom
Let’s see. S, C, H, W, E, D, E, L, S, O, N. Yeah, that’s it.

33:47
Rob Murray
jayschwedelson.com marketing expert, founder, speaker.

33:52
Jill Odom
He also has a tool called subjectline.com and you can test it out, and it’ll give you a score out of 100. So if you send emails, like newsletters, to your consumers, you can test it, and it’ll tell you, like, hey, you need to change this. Or here’s some suggestions on how to make it better.

34:06
Rob Murray
Epic. Love that it’s free subjectline.com. If you’re doing email marketing, why not use that tool? That’s badass. Thank you, Jill. You’re amazing. Thank you for doing this. And thank you, everybody.