Creating a Customer-Focused Culture for Business Growth with John Spence

Robert
00:00
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the I am landscape Growth podcast, where entrepreneurs help entrepreneurs grow faster, better, and stronger in the green industry. From leadership to sales to recruiting and operational excellence. We cover the topics holding entrepreneurs back and share how to get past those bottlenecks with the best in the industry. I’m your host, Rob Murray, co founder and CEO of Intrigue, a digital marketing company focused on helping landscape companies grow. So sit back and enjoy the show. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the I am Landscape Growth podcast. I have the honor and privilege of bringing John Spence onto the show. Thank you so much, John, for doing this.

John
00:41
My pleasure.

Robert
00:43
If you haven’t had the chance of reading, hearing, or being exposed to John Spence’s stuff, it is absolutely amazing. I had the opportunity of being introduced through one of our clients, business coaches, and then just so happened to get to meet you live in person, Victoria, for one of the EO conferences. And, you know, and since, you know, I’ve been diving into your content like crazy. And one of the things we’re gonna talk about today is, you know, your approach to customer engagement, and, you know, that customer obsession we just talked about, I think a lot of people are getting a lot of value from. So before we get into the interview, can you just give kind of like a close note summary of kind of where you are right now and how you’ve gotten here over the years?

Robert
01:24
I know there’s a lot to it, and people can see your TED talks and that type of thing, but maybe just give us a call so people have some context around, you know, what you’re up to.

John
01:33
I’ll do it super fast. We’ll do the fun version. After failing out of college on the first try because of spending way too much time on the beach and in the bars, I had to restart college, and I ended up graduating number four in the United States in my major. Got hired by one of the Rockefeller foundations right when I was coming out of college and became CEO of that foundation when I was 26 years old. So fast forward. I ran that foundation for a while. I ran a large consulting firm for a while. I’ve owned a couple of companies, and now, at 59, I spend most of my time traveling around the world teaching businesses, from startups to the fortune ten, how to improve. And my whole thing is trying to make complex business ideas as simple and easy to apply as possible.

Robert
02:21
Yeah, I love it, man. And seriously, thank you so much for doing this.

John
02:24
It’s my pleasure. It’s my honor.

Robert
02:26
So one of theme of this podcast is to helping these entrepreneurs get through the growth constraints that are holding them back. We talked about two briefly. One around a transition to working with commercial accounts, which I think we can talk to near the end. But the other one is this idea of this customer orientation and trying to understand the customers. We have to be able to get more of them and be able to delight them. So can you just speak a little bit to that? You’re talking a little bit about that. There’s one simple question we could be asking folks. Where are people missing the boat when it comes to approaching the customers they already have?

John
03:06
I’m going to hit a couple of things. First, I want to talk about the fact that as a business owner, your most important customers are your employees. That to your customer, they may or may not get to see. And as your company grows, they’re not going to get to see you all the time. But they see the people on their property. So treating them with respect and dignity and creating a great culture, all those things are critical. I’ve got a saying that I really enjoy, which is the customer’s experience will never exceed the employee’s experience. So that’s sort of a stage one. Stage two is really being a customer fanatic. I’ve used all these phrases. I’m sorry.

Robert
03:45
Give her, give her.

John
03:46
Yeah. Is whoever owns the voice of the customer owns the marketplace. And I’ve been involved in the landscaping industry for almost 20 years with a couple of my clients. And I’ll tell a brief story about this and the question. Many, many years ago, this was a landscaping firm. It was in about the 3 million, $4 million range, are now up in the $400 million range. And one of the things that changed it was we, as they were going commercial and really starting to get some big accounts that were millions of dollar accounts, went to six of their top clients and said, would you come in and sit on a customer advisory panel? And brought them in. Got a room at a hotel, a big, not a ballroom, but a meeting room.

John
04:33
We had their entire senior staff sitting there from the company, and we had their top customers sitting behind a table with microphones. And we asked them just a couple questions, and the most important one is, why specifically do you do business with us? What are the top three or four reasons? And I’ll say that again, why specifically do you do business with us? What are the top three or four reasons? All six said basically the same thing, and they turn around and said, okay, we’re going to build that. That will be the strategy of our entire company. Because we figure if six of our top clients that represent 80% of our revenue all hire us for the same three or four reasons, we have to be world class in those reasons. We got to be awesome at that.

John
05:17
And that’s really what they built their entire strategy, their growth strategy around. And they do that every year. They pick a bunch of their top clients, they do a lot of surveys, net promoter score and things, but they’re constantly asking that question, what do we need to do to make you really happy? And that feedback has allowed them to be wildly customer focused and own the voice of the customer.

Robert
05:38
Yeah, it’s beautiful. I mean, and it’s so beautifully simple, you know, going back to what you’re awesomely simple, asking your best customers, why specifically do you do business with us? Like, you know, three or four reasons. And then using that as an orientation to, you know, build, whether it’s a three to five year focus, annual focus whatever, to double down on making those things that they say, you know, world class competency. I just think that you is awesome and simple.

John
06:05
The way I look at it is if a group of people over here that represent your very best customers, the ones you’d like to have, lots more just like them, if a big group of them all say the same three or four reasons, that pattern there becomes your strategy. It becomes your unique selling proposition. It should be all over your website because they are, you know, if they’re going to buy, other people are probably going to buy for the same reasons. Stake in my opinion. Put your strategy around that, put all your advertising and marketing around that and continue to ask the question. But it’s a pretty solid bet if a whole bunch say the same thing, that’s really how you are going to succeed in the marketplace.

Robert
06:47
Yeah, that’s cool. And it’s also, I mean, the voice of the customer. The perception is reality, right? Their perception is your reality. So trying to fight that is probably not the best way to go. So I think it’s a really good approach, often overlooked. Right. Like taking a bit of time to pull together your best customers and a customer advisory board, you know, in terms of overall resources is not crazy. But a lot of people forget maybe to do it right.

John
07:12
Yeah, you don’t have to do the get the hotel bar room, bring the whole staff in, just go ask them, talk to them, pick up a phone, call them, chat with them. And the reason that question is so specific is I only want to know four reasons I don’t want to know. 44 it’s like the top three or four, because it’s that pattern that tells, that gives me the confidence to say, okay, like, I asked my clients every year, and I’ve been doing it for 25 years, and I get the same thing every year. Research. Real life passion equals ROI. I read 100, 120 business books a year. I have for 25 to 30 years, I work with companies all over the world. I’ve got. I’ve owned companies and done it. I know what it’s like to have to sign paychecks and fire people.

John
07:57
And I’ve dedicated my whole life to doing this. And because. Because of that, people get a return that’s all over my stuff. It’s all over my website.

Robert
08:04
That’s literally.

John
08:05
Yeah, literally everywhere. Because all of my top clients that spend a lot of money with me tell me those are the three reasons they hire me.

Robert
08:12
I love it. So then on this idea of that customer orientation, the clients and making sure we understand them better, moments of truth. So can we just give the audience kind of some quick context around what those are and maybe how they can start to find them?

John
08:28
Yep. Yep. So I’ll give the quick backstory quickly. That’s it. If I’ve been giving a quick backstory, that it’s pretty quick. Years and years ago, the scandinavian air systems was on the verge of bankruptcy, and they brought a new guy in named Jan Carlson to turn the airline around. And he looked at it and said, this is totally messed up. We’re just going to have to start from scratch, basically. And he said, then if we’re going to do that, let’s build the new business focused on the very, very best customers in the marketplace and in the airline industry. That’s frequent business travelers, people like me that are on the road a couple hundred days a year. As your listeners are thinking, who would be your best customer if you looked in your community or your region?

John
09:14
Who would be the people that would be the awesome customers that would grow your business? That’s what he did with the airline. Then he backed up and said, now, let’s look at every single touch point that we have with them, from when they call in to make a reservation to when they show up to get their tickets, when they go to the gate, when they get on the plane, the food, all of that. And then let’s back up and look at for our best customers, what are the three or four things we must do flawlessly? Those moments of truth, and I always use a very simple example, is restaurants. I’ve asked this question to tens of thousands of people. Basically, at a restaurant, there’s only four major moments of truth. Good service, reasonable prices, good quality food for the prices and cleanliness.

John
10:00
And I’ve heard that all over the world. So my example is, if you went to a restaurant and the service was magnificent, the people were wonderful, they brought you ice cold beer, and you looked at the prices, and the prices are really reasonable. The food comes out. It’s awesome. Then you go in the bathroom and it’s disgusting, it’s dirty. And in a restaurant, here’s a great example. If you go in the bathroom and it’s dirty, the first question you ask yourself is, I wonder what the kitchen looks like. So here’s my point. Maybe they did 100 touch points. It was easy to park, plenty of lighting, air conditioning is perfect, music, everything’s right. They nailed three of the four moments of truth. Great service, great food, reasonable prices. They miss up one moment of truth, cleanliness, and they lose the customer forever.

John
10:47
And actually, they become what I call a customer terrorist. They go around telling everybody, don’t do business with them. So for your folks, and part of this comes from asking that question, why are the three or four reasons? And then stepping up. And also remember that you have moments of truth internally, things you have to do for each other that allow you to do the things externally. Landscaping industry. If the folks back at the head office are not getting the machines ready and not fixing stuff, it’s kind of hard to do landscaping when your machine. Yeah, the truck won’t start or the, you know, the lawnmower doesn’t work or.

Robert
11:25
You know, gas or whatever.

John
11:27
Yeah. All that stuff. If that. That seems simple, but if you don’t follow that process, then you’re going to fail at the end. I’m going to do a really quick, another story. Because I travel so much, I go to a lot of restaurants, and I. The same breakfast every morning, two eggs every medium sausage patty or link, piece of dry whole wheat toast. I will go to a restaurant, a really nice restaurant, for breakfast, and I’ll give that order. And the waiter or waitress will not write anything down. They want to impress me with their amazing memory, and I’m like, oh, you know, here it’s going to go. You know, it’s only four items, iced tea, eggs, blah, blah. They’re going to mess it up. And the process is simple. Write down the order. They skip that one step.

John
12:12
They ruin my breakfast, and I watch them having it, and they got to return stuff. They got to recook stuff. It’s that simple little one step that messes up the whole thing. So as you look at your own company, what are the moments of truth that have to be done flawlessly? And then what processes do you put in place? What training, resources, all that stuff to make sure that those things are perfect every single time?

Robert
12:36
Yeah. I love it. Right. So it’s like looking, it’s almost reverse engineering. How do we make a false experience for the customer? And then what do we have to do as a team to make sure that we’re ready to create that flawless experience?

John
12:45
It’s exactly right. So it’s internal as well as external.

Robert
12:49
Yeah.

John
12:49
Have to run the accounting, has to be good so the billing’s on time.

Robert
12:54
And then in the landscape business, somebody who is, let’s say, focused on whether it’s residential or commercial, is there one example that comes to mind just to get their minds kind of working on from a starting point of, oh, yeah, okay, I understand. That would be a moment of truth for my customer.

John
13:09
Yeah. So here’s what I learned from the company I worked with. Don’t surprise me, you know, be proactive. Get there and fix stuff before I see that a tree is dying or a sprinkler’s broken or something like that. Number two, give me, I love this one. Give me three prices, and I’m not always going to pick the lowest. Sometimes I’ll pick the highest. But don’t just come in and give me one price. Give me a range of options. And then be on time and be respectful is, you know, don’t go right up to the window and air blow in the middle of the afternoon. Let’s get this stuff done when the places are on. So it’s all about no surprises. Give me options. Give me advice.

John
13:50
This is why I should replace this tree or redo these things over here, why we should cut more often or what it might be. But those are the main things, which now back up. If I owned a commercial property, I don’t want to come in one day and see a dead tree laying there. I don’t want to see water shooting out of a sprinkler. I want my landscaping firm to come and make recommendations. Hey, we ought to do this. Change this, move more mulch here, whatever it might be.

Robert
14:14
Easy.

John
14:15
Yeah, easy stuff. And then, oh, the big one. Communication. Keep me in the loop. Let me know what’s going on. Communicate with me. Which is part of the don’t surprises. That was the one in the landscape firm that I, or the firms that I’ve worked with is stay in touch, pick up the phones, you know, ask how they like it. You want a phone? Do you want a text? You want an email? But keep them informed. Let them know what’s going on. You got to build a relationship there. And these big accounts. Whoo. Messing up one relationship can hurt real bad. Like six figures, seven figures bad.

Robert
14:49
Well, and it’s, and again, awesomely simple. I mean, there’s a theme, obviously, here, John, but letting someone know when you’re coming and when you leave. When you’re leaving is. Is really simple. And there’s, you know, technology that can automate the whole thing. So you can just say, hey, we’re, you know, we’re being routed towards you right now. Crews on the way. Hey, we just finished up. You know, thanks so much for the day. The crew’s done. We’re leaving now. Here’s quick notes of what, you know, they found on the property that day.

John
15:14
What this guy does is they take quick pictures, use their cell phone. Bam, here’s a tree that was dead. This is why we replaced it. Or here’s the sprinkler, or here’s an area we think needs to be fixed. They just, boom, quick picture and shoot the picture to them and say, this is what it looked like when we got here. This is what it looked like when we left.

Robert
15:33
Okay, so then we’re talking about customer obsession. And one of the first things you said was, well, the first thing is the entrepreneur, the business owner’s customer, is the team.

John
15:42
Yep.

Robert
15:43
First and foremost. And the customer experience is never going to exceed the team’s experience, which I’m a full fan. I believe that wholeheartedly. I mean, Southwest Airlines did a fantastic job. I think, you know, making that a reality. Can you just break that down a little bit so that people understand the context behind it? And then maybe some of the things that you’re seeing people do really well with engaging those teams.

John
16:05
Yeah. And, you know, in the industry, I think both everybody listening knows is the folks out in the field on the property are. That’s a tough group. They’re the ones that are doing the actual work. They’re really, again, as I say, they’re the face of your company. They’re the ones that people actually like.

Robert
16:20
Literally.

John
16:21
Literally the face of your company. Well, I always tell the story. I live in Florida. Publix is the major grocery store here. And I’ll get in an audience in Florida and say, how many of you shop at Publix? And every hand goes up just about. And I say, okay. How many of you know the fam, personally know the family that owns Publix? Nobody. How many of you personally know the CEO of Publix? Nobody. How many of you know the manager for the state of Florida, Publix? Nobody. How many of you personally know your regional manager? Nobody. How many personally know your store manager? Now get maybe six hands, three hands out of 100. How many of you know the people that check you out every day and you bag your. And bring your stuff to your car? Every hand goes up.

John
17:01
I go, do you understand that the people at the cash register and the person who carries your groceries are Publix to you? All those other people could be awesome. But if that person’s rude, you’re gone.

Robert
17:12
Yeah.

John
17:13
So the thing that I’ve really seen both internally, for people that had office handout in the field, the teams, is culture. It’s, do you treat people with dignity and respect? Do we try to have fun? Do we keep them in the loop on things? Do we give them a sense of pride? You know, we’re going to give them nice trucks, we’re going to paint them, we’re going to put a nice logo on or give them good equipment. We’re going to celebrate them. If something goes well, we’re going to, you know, the one of the firms I work with, twice a year, they do a celebration barbecue or a dinner, and they just take. They go into the shed and put a bunch of chairs out. Nothing spectacular. And they give away some swag.

John
17:53
Here’s some shirts, hats, here’s a couple of gift cards, things like that. For the folks that are out on the property, that is a big deal for them to have a whole day where we just, we’re not going to do anything but tell you nothing gets done without all of you out in the field. You are the heart and soul of the business. And it’s the same thing internally, is having a great culture. You can’t pay. Some people are driven by money. I think most people that do this know rough. Well, here’s roughly what everybody says is, as long as I’m making 10% more or less than I would make anyplace else, money isn’t the major motivator. Some people, if I can jump and go down the street, make a few bucks more, they’ll go.

John
18:32
But for most people, if I love the company I’m working in, I like the people I work with. I’m treated fairly. It’s got a family atmosphere. I take pride in where I work. A few bucks more is not going to pull them away, and they will become loyal employees and part of the family. So it isn’t all about money. It’s about how you treat people and how you celebrate them and make them feel good about what they’re doing and tie a direct line between what they do every day and the overall success of the organization.

Robert
19:04
Yeah, I love it. And so a lot of times, you know, we talk a lot on this idea of growth on purpose, and a big part of that is living core values, and because then they’ll create a culture, because culture exists. No matter what, whether you intend it or not, it’s there. Core values can shape culture if done properly. But a lot of times, we’ll hear feedback from entrepreneurs being like, we tried this thing, and it was okay. Then it kind of fizzled. We didn’t do it again. Or, like, we don’t have the time to do that kind of stuff. What do you say to the audience in terms of, first of all, making the time, how valuable it is, or one or two things that they can do and make it stick for a long time.

Robert
19:49
So that way, it actually turns into something, you know, that. That breeds that kind of culture that you’re talking about.

John
19:55
So when people tell me they don’t have enough time, I’m not a violent person, but it takes everything I can not to choke them. How can you not have time for this? It is your business. If you don’t do this, you will not have a business, or your turnover will be out of control. And I work for a boat manufacturing company once, and some guy. This is a stupid rule. You can’t take more than 15 bolts or screws to go work on the boat. So put 15 in, go get 15 more. So the guy said, put a handful. The manager shop, the boss saw him, said, you’re out of here. That’s it. I told the owner, do you know that cost you about $160,000 for that guy that puts screws in the boat to get fired? Because now you got to pay this.

John
20:38
You got to retrain somebody, you got to rehire somebody, insurance, blah, blah. As soon as you realize that, the whole thing shifted. You have to realize, if you’ve got bad culture and turnover, it’s costing you a lot of money. And culture, to me, and you said it very hard, culture is there, no matter what. Culture by design is really the way to do it. What kind of a culture do we want? And then it’s totally from the leadership team. If the leadership team doesn’t make time, another thing that makes me crazy is people that have, like, I work with a lot of credit unions. The CEO goes and visits the branches 1 hour a year. Like, you got 15 branches, swing by and visit one on the way to work in the morning, swing by and visit one on the way out.

John
21:24
You should be there at least once a month or every two weeks for a half an hour. Go out and see your folks in the field. Go spend time with them, hang out with them in the shed or whatever. Get to know them. Because if you’re not interacting with them at that level, they will not feel loyal to the organization. And that’s how if you want a culture of fairness and friendly and family and all the things that doesn’t happen by chance, it happens because you make an effort to go out and celebrate people, praise them, spend time with them, give them training, give them development, help them get better at their job. Those things are planned and they are much less expensive than massive turnover.

Robert
22:02
Yeah, massive. Massively, much less expensive.

John
22:06
Yeah.

Robert
22:07
Was it? I think John C. Maxwell, you have to win a heart before you ask for a hand.

John
22:11
Absolutely. I’ve never heard that one, but it’s absolutely perfect.

Robert
22:14
Yeah. And I think what you just said and the way you articulated it, you know, exemplifies that. Well, so then let’s assume that there’s some people listening right now, and they’ve always wanted to do something like this, have never really done it. They don’t know how to start. What would be a tip to kind of get into it and start building some sort of habit, routine or tradition that’ll engage their team?

John
22:36
Well, I’ll give you a, I told you, I worked at the Rockefellers for a while and we did some work with them. And I’m trying to think. It was Carnegie foundation, it was Andrew Carnegie that used to put three pennies in his right pocket and say, I have to go out and talk to three people today, and as soon as I talk to one person, I can move one penny to the other pocket. And that got him out of his office every day, walking out on the floor, meeting people, because his rule to himself was all three pennies must be in the other pocket before I leave today. That’s just a simple thing of make the time get out of your chair.

Robert
23:13
It’s so easy.

John
23:15
I know. It’s so easy. Yeah. You know, or, you know, I’ve got one guy that I work with, the CEO. His office is on the third floor and, you know, the exit is out on the first floor. I’m like, never take the elevator. Walk through the office, the second floor, where you’ve got 100 employees that barely know you every single time you go up and down, it’ll be good for your health and it’ll be great for your company. So how do you build a little bit, they call it MBWA management by walking around or wandering around. The other thing is to plan, you know, giving lunch out or having a pizza party or, you know, having everybody stop for a minute to celebrate.

John
23:55
One person maybe having an employee of the month award, doing something nice, like, you know, giving somebody a gift certificate to take their family out. And it doesn’t have to be money. A handwritten note is an unbelievably positive thing, because if you take the time to sit at your desk and write somebody, you know, you’re really doing a great job. I’m proud of you. Thank you so much for being on our team. If you did two or three of those a month, you would have people that would run through walls for you. So it doesn’t have to be expensive. It just needs to be heartfelt and you need to make the time, and that’s the whole senior team, you know?

John
24:28
And again, I must say, if the top leader, one or two leaders, don’t think that’s a good idea and it won’t spend time, it doesn’t matter what anybody else does.

Robert
24:35
Yeah, that’s totally fair. I love the little notes. We have these things. Little. Awesome.

John
24:42
Yeah, there you go. Awesome citation. That’s fantastic.

Robert
24:45
Game on Amazon. A pack is like $3 or something like that. And so the Gallup poll, international survey, organizational health Survey, there’s like the twelve questions or something like that.

John
24:56
Yeah. The Gallup Q twelve.

Robert
24:59
Yeah, that’s it. And so one of the things, one of the areas that, you know, cross cultural, lowest rated score was I’ve received praise for doing good work in the last seven days. Organizations across the world scored low. So. And we did. We did, too. The first time we did it.

John
25:15
So let me give you a really cool idea around that. Shoot, when I left the, when I left the foundation, I was a stand in CEO at several companies. And one of, and they’d always say, you know, John, what’s your vision? And I’m like, I don’t have one. I’m going to be gone in six months.

Robert
25:31
Right.

John
25:32
I’m just, my job is to come here, hold the fort down, hire somebody to take the company. But what I can tell you is I’m going to make this the best place you’ve ever worked while we’re here together. And part of that was what I call creating a culture of catching people doing things right. You know, I tell a senior executive, you got, someone needs praise once every. It’s actually closer about once every five days now, but every five to seven days, like, I don’t have time to do that. No, no, you. Maybe not. You should still be out praising people. But what I would do is I would challenge everybody every day. When you come in for work every day, I want you to catch three people doing something right. Doesn’t have to be massive, just, okay, you put the.

John
26:10
You wipe down the weed eater before you put it back, or you did this, or you brought some coffee, whatever it might be. But everybody is challenged to find to three times a day, say, thank you for doing that. I appreciate you. I’m glad on your team. What happens then is you get tons of praise around the culture. And the way I used to describe it, that means when you go to work in the morning, you know, that you get to make a couple of people’s days better.

Robert
26:36
Yeah, that’s.

John
26:37
I’m gonna make some people and everybody else is trying to make your day better.

Robert
26:41
I love it. Yeah. And not to mention the. The habit forming of looking for positive versus what leaders are naturally prone to do, which is look for things that are broken, that need to be fixed. So I think that’s a beautiful habit that can be instilled really easily, very easily, and then also layer on top of it, if you can say it with a core value attached to it. Hey, you’re practicing this. Rock on. Bring them to life. I just think that’s super cool.

John
27:07
It’s a great idea to tie it into the core values. Fantastic idea.

Robert
27:12
So we got customer obsession, this idea that team is customer. The moments of truth. And then you talked a little bit as a growth constraint, as an entrepreneur, it’s going from the ground up. They started off with a truck and a mower, let’s say. And it’s 1520 years later, they’re a four or $5 million company. Outside help. You kind of mentioned that there. There’s huge opportunities, as you’re growing, to figure out, you know, different types of people to bring into the organization, whether it’s a mentor, a coach, or even somebody inside, internally, full time on the senior leadership team, to help run the business at different levels as it grows. So can you just speak to, you know, what you’ve seen there and kind of how that applies to folks? Yeah.

John
27:54
I see this across all industries, is somebody starts a small business, an entrepreneur, by themselves, two or three employees, they look up one day and they have 30 employees, then 100, then entered 300. And what some entrepreneurs have to admit is, I don’t have the skills to run 100 million. Let’s just say that I don’t have the skills to run a 10 million or $20 million company. I was way over my head at 5 million. I could scrape and buy, got lucky. So part of it is you have to understand that at some point you have to bring in somebody that has strong business experience. You might know landscaping really well. You might know your community well. But running a 5 million or $10 million company is different than running a $500,000 company. The idea of advisors, mentors, brilliant.

John
28:40
I do a lot of work in New Zealand. Even small companies have a board of directors or a board of advisors. Almost every company, I’m talking a million dollars or less, they get three or four people. So another thing that, and I think your industry has this is non competitive groups that get together and share information and ideas.

Robert
28:59
Yeah, for sure. There’s lots of peer to peer learning.

John
29:01
Peer to peer learning. That is awesome. And then there’s another idea called creating a mastermind group. Are you familiar with that?

Robert
29:09
Very much so, yeah.

John
29:11
And that is, I’ve had. When I failed out of college, one of the things that changed my life was I created a mastermind group, which was basically my study group. And I got, you know, I said, anybody wants. I stand up every semester. Han Jon, I really want to do well in this class. I’m going to start a study group. Anybody’s willing to be in the study group as long as you have a 3.6 gpa or higher. So I surrounded myself with really talented people that raised my game and everybody else’s game. Same thing. I have a. I just said earlier, I’m almost 60. I still have a study group. I’ve got a group of CEO’s. We all read together, we meet, we go to dinner. We help each other with our businesses. We’re all non competitive. We’re in completely different industries.

John
29:53
So that idea of having a team of people to help you, whether it be an advisory board, an outside consultant, a coach, a mastermind group, the more the better. Well, I did a TED talk on this. You probably remember, the most important thing I’ve ever learned in my life is you become what you focus on and like the people you surround yourself with. Whatever you’re reading, studying, learning, whatever you’re thinking about whatever you feel your brain and your mind with, whoever you choose to spend your time with will directly determine the rest of your life. And it’s the same thing in your business. What is your business focus on? Are you learning and innovating and growing? And then who is on your team in your business? Those two things completely determine the success of your organization.

Robert
30:37
I love it. And so from a mindset perspective, and were. I was talking a little bit a couple minutes ago, a lot of entrepreneurs get fixated on what needs to be fixed. So, like, this is broken. We got to make that better. We got to make that better as opposed to everything. Like, this is great. That is great. That is great. Can you speak to the different mindsets and, like, how that impacts people and their success or lack thereof?

John
31:00
Yeah, it’s interesting. I haven’t read this book yet, but I just got a one called compassionate accountability. And I’m not plugging because I haven’t read it. I don’t know if it’s good.

Robert
31:09
Sure, yeah, that’s cool.

John
31:10
But it’s. The idea of kindness and accountability is I’m going to treat you with respect. We’re going to celebrate, but I’m also going to make sure you absolutely do the things you need to do in your job. And the way to do that is to be exceedingly clear in expectations. And I don’t like process, but if you want repeatable success, you must have process. So having specific measurements, ways that things get done, standard operating procedures, safety measures, things like that people are trained on all the time, then you have the ability to say, you’re okay. I like you. However, what you just did broke our safety protocol, and that can’t happen. You’re okay. Your behavior was not okay. So let’s. I’m not going to worry about trying to fix you, per se. I’m going to. Let’s fix the issue, the problem.

John
31:58
So the way to create that is to have very clear stuff. So you can say, we have an ABC process, or you were supposed to, you know, you’re one of your salespeople. You were supposed to close a million dollars worth of business this year. We’re in October and you’ve only closed 500,000. What can we do? Not what will you do, but what can we do to help each other? Because the idea on this is you’re not reprimand, I don’t know, use rep. You’re not fixing someone to be aggressive. You’re doing it because we want everyone to succeed. That’s the mindset that shifts is we’re all on the same team. I’m holding you accountable because we want to be successful together.

Robert
32:36
Well, I’m one of the. One of the things you just said, though, about clarity, I think is really important because a lot of people will get frustrated with their team, but the team doesn’t know why they’re frustrated, and then all of a sudden, they just get blown up at. And so if we come back to that clarity piece, what are some tips you can give some folks now to be like, okay, here’s how you get clear with people. And it doesn’t have to be crazy. Like, some people get overwhelmed with this idea of, like, everything needs to be, you know, standard operating procedure. Everything needs to be listed out like crazy. And I think it’s over complicating and makes the whole thing like, you don’t even want to start because it’s so big.

Robert
33:05
So how can we peel it back and make it awesomely simple to get people moving towards clarity with their team?

John
33:10
So there’s. There’s two things here. One is taking the time, and not on everything, but on the stuff that’s got to get done. Our moments of truth. The core things is to create exceedingly clear expectations. Let people know what success looks like, Alexa, make it easy for them to win. Don’t make them guess about what will make you happy or the client happy, the customer happy. I. This is an old analogy. I haven’t used it at all in years. It’s kind of stupid, but I’m going to do it anyways. It’s kind of like if you’re a bowling alley and the pins are what you want your customer, your employee to hit, but you put a curtain there and they roll the ball and they hear clinking and you go, try harder. What do you mean, try harder? Try harder how?

John
33:51
I don’t know what happened.

Robert
33:53
Roll the ball harder.

John
33:54
Yeah, just roll the whole ball. You know what to do. Come on, man, just try harder. So the idea is people need to know specifically what success looks like. They need to be trained to do it, and then the other side is wherever possible. And this is hard. Make the expectations binary. Yes or no, black or white, you did it or you didn’t. If you can get as close to that as possible, then again, it isn’t about you. It’s you didn’t do what you agreed you do, right? Yeah, we said we do a, you just did b. That’s. I’m not saying you’re a bad person. I’m just saying, on a. And you got to do a going forward, because if it gets you, I don’t think you’re doing a good job. I don’t think you’re trying to. Doesn’t seem to me you did that.

John
34:40
Right. That’s all opinion. And the other person can have an opinion that they did it. Right.

Robert
34:45
Right.

John
34:46
You need to take opinion and politics and favoritism and emotion out of it. You either did it or you didn’t. Again, you’re a good person. Until the point where it gets that you say, okay, this person isn’t right for the company. Up until that time, it’s, you’re a great person. This performance didn’t meet the expectations that we agreed upon.

Robert
35:04
Yeah. And the beautiful part about that is a lot of people, if it’s clear and they’re not winning, they’re stressed out and not happy, and having that conversation can be a relief. Like, why don’t we get you being epic somewhere else? Like, if you can’t make it epic here and you don’t need to be stressed out, and we always talk about this idea of, like, let’s make sure you’re happy and healthy.

John
35:23
Yeah.

Robert
35:23
If. If people are stressed out, not happy, and stress will eventually turn into disease. Like, sick people get sick when they’re really stressed out for a really long period of time. If you’re not happy and healthy, then let’s figure out how to get you happy and healthy.

John
35:35
Yeah. We use a thing called the three t’s train transfer terminate. If I can’t train you up in this place to be epic at this job, can I move you somewhere else in the company? Not hide your chevalier, but where you will be great and happy and healthy and if I can’t train you or transfer you to be happy and healthy, and I’m not saying when I say terminates for three years.

Robert
35:56
Yeah.

John
35:56
It’s just the word, as Canadians often say, love them right out the door. Well.

Robert
36:02
And let them be free to go. Be great somewhere else.

John
36:05
Well, I just did this with one of my clients. I do a lot of executive coaching, and she had a person in a company that they’d moved him around all over the place, and he just wasn’t succeeding. And then I helped him put in some key performance indicators, some binary measurements, and after about three weeks, it was too much pressure. He knew he couldn’t do it. So this is what I counselor on. I said, he’s been here for seven years. He’s a good guy. He just can’t do the work. Tell him when you go to let him go. And he actually said, I think I need to go. And she said, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to bust our ass to help you get the right job. You tell me what you want to do.

John
36:41
You tell me what would make you happy and healthy, and I will go out to my network and I will help you find the job that you want, that will. Where you will be able to, and I get to use your term again, where you will be epic. And he said, you do that for me? Of course. She said he was like the happiest person in the world who just lost their job.

Robert
37:01
Right?

John
37:03
That’s the same with my employees. You’re a great person. You’re just, this isn’t the right place for you. You’re going to be great someplace else. Let me help you find that place.

Robert
37:12
I love that. And it comes from a place of compassion, which is an easy way to have a conversation as opposed to frustration or anger or whatever might be there without that.

John
37:19
Yeah, frustration and anger doesn’t help anything.

Robert
37:21
Nobody. Okay, so I’ve taken up more time than we had scheduled, and I know that I don’t want to do too much of that. So last one, wrap it up. And, you know, 120 business books a year for 25 years. If you could provide the audience a resource, you know, whether it’s a speaker, a podcast, Ted talk, something that’s coming to mind. Customer obsession kind of being kind of the core focus of what we’re talking about today that you’d recommend. What would it be?

John
37:49
Wow. I wish you’d asked me that before we got on here so I could think about it.

Robert
37:53
Well, a couple. It doesn’t have to be the best.

John
37:55
Well, first of all, this is going to sound weird, but like, people that find this sort of thing on YouTube, I’m a big fan of using YouTube to find stuff. There’s more information available for free right now than ever in the history of humankind. You want to do training for your folks? Go find a couple of YouTube videos on customer focus, customer obsession, things like that. It doesn’t cost anything. I’m a huge fan for reading. I think I’ve said it before, if you read twelve books a year, you’re in the top 1% in the world for personal, continuous learning. So being a lifelong learner, being constantly. Okay, I want to learn more about customer service. Let me go buy. Go to Amazon. See the top three books at Amazon. Buy one. Read it. Whenever I meet somebody who’s really successful.

John
38:38
I always say, what are the top three business books you’ve ever read? If I were to look at a book right now that I recently read, it would beyond entrepreneurship or business entrepreneurship. It’s called be two by Jim Collins. And Jim Collins is one of the most famous business guys in the history of business. I’m going to see him in October, and it’s basically a compilation of all the books he’s ever written.

Robert
39:04
Oh, sweet.

John
39:05
Yeah. And because, I mean, his books are. It’s kind of tough, but he looks at bigger companies. But here’s what I always say. I mean, I work for Apple and Microsoft. I also work for startups. It’s the same thing. It’s just more zeros. Pretty much every company struggles from the same five or six or ten things. It’s just instead of it being ten people, it’s 10,000. It’s obviously more complicated, but communications, accountability, things like that, culture doesn’t matter. So that’s it. And then do you have a resource center on your YouTube where they can go and look from?

Robert
39:42
Yeah.

John
39:43
Listen to this or watch?

Robert
39:44
Yeah, we’ve got blogs and resources. So guides. We’ve got a bunch of stuff on our website.

John
39:48
Use that and then I’ll send you. I’ve got a couple of. I’ve got a list of the top 60 or 70 business or business books I’ve ever had, actually. It’s got some personal development books in there, too. I also have a great list of questions you should ask yourself before you fire somebody. And here’s why. If you could say yes to all of them. Yes, they have the resources. Yes, I’ve trained them. Yes, I’ve done that. Yes, yes. Then they probably need to go, here’s what I’m gonna tell you. 90% of the time, it’s gonna be, yes, no, no. And you go, let me look in the mirror, because I didn’t do the stuff they need for them to be successful. It’s not about me terminating them. It’s about me being a better leader or a better.

Robert
40:26
I love that, man.

John
40:27
I’ll send you a bunch of resources.

Robert
40:29
Yeah, well, and I’ll put it into the, like the summary for the podcast. So everybody listening, you can just grab it from the summary notes wherever you’re listening or watching this thing. And then if somebody wants to engage with John Spence, what’s the best way for them to get ahold of you?

John
40:42
Johnspence dot. John Spence.com is my website. But if somebody has a question or didn’t get something or wants a specific book recommendation. My email is johnspence.com. Very innovative.

Robert
40:55
Is it awesomely simple?

John
40:58
And I answer all my own emails. If it, you know, it might take me a couple days to get back to you if I’m really busy and if it’s truly important or urgent, like I got a question I need some help with right now. Write important or urgent in all caps on the header and I will read it immediately and get back to you as fast as you can.

Robert
41:18
You’re the best, John. Thank you so much for doing this.

John
41:20
That’s the way, as I said at the beginning, this is where we’re all in this together. It’s our job to help each other and all of us to be more successful and take care of our people. That’s the, you know, people ask me why I got into this. Because every company I can help is 40 or 50 or 1000 jobs and their families and their kids. I think leaders don’t realize sometimes that it isn’t just your business, it’s all these people’s lives, and you’re responsible. When I was young, I used to lay awake in bed worried about all the kids I had to put through college. I don’t have kids, but I had families that I had to take care of by making sure our company was as successful as possible.

Robert
41:56
I love it, dude. A true servant mindset. Thank you, John.

John
42:00
My pleasure. Thank you.

Robert
42:02

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