Paul Zammit Reflects on 20 Years at a Garden Center & His Shift to Teaching

Robert
Hi everyone, and welcome to the I am landscape Growth podcast, where entrepreneurs help entrepreneurs grow faster, better, and stronger in the green industry. From leadership to sales to recruiting and operational excellence. We cover the topics holding entrepreneurs back and share how to get past those bottlenecks with the best in the industry. I’m your host, Rob Murray, co founder and CEO of Intrigue, a digital marketing company focused on helping landscape companies grow. So sit back and enjoy the show. Hi everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the I am Landscape Growth podcast. Today we have a very interesting guest. I’m stoked to have you. We’ve got Paul Zammit. Very interesting career in the green industry, all the way from retail, wholesale, working with growers, and now teaching students in the classroom at Sheridan College and really kind of building the future of the industry.

Robert
So, Paul, thank you so much for doing this.

Paul
Oh, thank you for having me. Just one quick correction. I’m teaching at Niagara College.

 

Oh, sorry, my bad. That’s right. You know what we said notes. I’ve got it right in front of me. It says Niagara College. And we said, we don’t read.

 

No worries.

 

My mistake. Niagara College. Cole’s notes give people a bit of a perspective in terms of where you’re coming from so they understand kind of where your points of view will be kind of coming from after your journey industry, how long you’ve been doing it, and how you ended up doing what you’re doing over the last, say, ten years or something like that.

 

Sure. So I graduated from university about 30 plus years ago. And I went to university with the intention of being a chicken farmer. I came from when we immigrated to Canada, we raised livestock in the backyard, which were not pets. So I was really into the animal husbandry. But when I got to university, and I will say school was very difficult for me, I just fell in love with plants and the understanding of plants. And immediately out of university, I started working at a garden center, which talk about time passing quickly. Rob, I spent 20 years at that garden center. Really didn’t have a reason to leave. I started off in the nursery. They recognized I was one of the few people that knew some of the perennial names. They gave me that department. We grew that department tremendously.

 

I’m very proud of what were able to do. I didn’t do it alone. I worked with an amazing team. And then from there, after the 20 years, and again, I had no reason to leave. But I thought it was time to just try something a little bit different. And I went to the public garden world so I spent ten years as the director of horticulture at the Toronto Botanical Garden. And through both of those, I spent a lot of time working very closely with growers. So during my time at Plant World, I really learned that in order to have the product I needed to sell to my customers, I need to work with growers to ensure that I had not only the quality, but also the quantity and the diversity.

 

We saw an explosion in the world of prenios when I joined the industry. We went from the three hostas to the 250 different selections that were carrying, which is very small in comparison to what’s out there. So I continued to develop that relationship with growers, even while I worked at the Toronto Botanical Garden, because we would draw on that, we would have events. And then after ten years at the Toronto Botanical Garden, I just felt it was time to put my passion into another area with the time I’d spent in the industry. I thought, look how much information, look how much insight I have gained. How do I share that with others? And yes, while I’ve been doing so through public speaking, the School of Niagara College came to the college, sorry, came to the Toronto Botanical Gardens, and we did a tour.

 

And one of the teachers said to me, why aren’t you in the classroom? And I thought, because this is my job, so just come for an interview. Went for the first interview, went for the second interview, and remember calling my wife, saying, I think this may be a little bit serious. And then I started there in 2019, and I really questioned if I had the qualifications to be a teacher. But what most people kept telling me is, you’ve been teaching all of the time. You just haven’t been teaching in the classroom. And really, I count my blessings to be in the classroom because what it does, Rob, it not only allows me to draw on my past experience, but it lets me look out into the future. When I look at those students’faces, like, literally, totally, and they ask some really hard hitting questions.

 

So I go into class sometimes a little bit like, ooh, what’s going to come? But we have these awesome conversations. So I really count my blessings every day because I’m feeling I can give back. But I am so continuing to learn every single day, man, which is pretty awesome.

 

That is super cool. I mean, what do they say the difference between a teacher and a student is? One class or something like that? Okay, so theme of the podcast episodes that we do is all around the growth constraints in the green industry. What are holding entrepreneurs back now? There’s a natural kind of segue into this idea of the fact that you’re training people and people are learning and they’re students, and then the future of the industry. But before we go there, what do you see as the primary growth constraint, kind of holding the green industry back, or entrepreneurs in the industry back?

 

Well, I think we need to look at the horticultural industry in a much larger and wider context. And best example I would give would be in 2018, I was asked to go to South Africa to give a series of presentations. And I had been working on a number of talks in my head and kind of also struggling while I was at the garden center and then while I was at the Toronto Botanical Garden, because were always fixated on making your garden look beautiful, making the gardens look beautiful for everyone. And I realized that there was really so much more to that.

 

One of the joys I got not only was when people would be taking pictures or saying how beautiful it was, but one of the greater joys that I would get was being there early in the morning and seeing the orchestra, if you will, of all the goldfinches flying through the sanguisorba, or all the spider webs, and realizing that the gardens, yes, look beautiful, but they do so much more to support and invite guests into the garden. And I don’t mean people, I do like people.

 

But.

 

Then what I decided to do when I went to South Africa was titled my presentations, or at least one of them, was rethinking beauty, really looking at what we’re doing when we’re installing a garden and when we’re building a garden and what is a garden. And it just asked everyone to stop, look a little bit more closely and look at the potential of it. And so what I would say with the industry is, I see a lot of these installations, I do judging, and we’re judging on these kind of aesthetics, this distance back, but there’s so much more to it, so much more potential, and it kind of coincides with a lot of the global issues that we’re facing. Climate change, biodiversity, cris, that gardens can afford and can do so much more.

 

And I truly believe, as gardeners, as land stewards, which I think landscapers are, we have an opportunity to do so much more than just to make it look pretty. And this may be a bit of a bold statement, so let’s put it out there and see where it. I think it’s important that we look at horticulture and think about its relevancy in today’s times. What is the relevancy of gardens what is the relevancy of what we’re doing as an industry, and what potential is there? And so when I speak to my students about know, they’re often like, oh, what can we do? But it’s been proven over and over, rob, you don’t have to have a big space. You can start small and make changes.

 

In my own home garden, the changes that I have seen in practices, working with growers and things like that, there are things that can happen. So I think the industry needs to seriously look at what it’s growing, how it’s growing, and even some of the side products. We often install these beautiful. We feel good. We’re installing these butterflyer pollinator gardens. And sometimes I say, why are we even calling them that? Why do we need to justify that we’re doing that? But on the back end, we’ve got all this plastic that we’re generating, that the plants are in. So there’s a lot of points that I think we need to look at as an industry. And this is where I look to the students that I look out onto.

 

And when they ask questions, they’ll ask simple things like, well, then, why isn’t every pot recyclable? And there’s reasons for that, right? So why can’t we look at that and see what we can do?

 

Yeah, that’s a really interesting perspective. And I’d say out of 20 or so interviews, no one’s brought this up. And I think what you said there, it spans a lot of different topics, right, from a supply chain management, legitimate material perspective. But then also this idea of depth within garden design. Whereas 30 or 40 years ago, quite simply, we’re looking at aesthetics and colors and palettes, and now, why not look at this idea of, like, a natural function on top of aesthetic? And it doesn’t have to be this or that, right? It could be this and that.

 

That’s the point. It’s not one or the other. I mean, I do a lot of consulting. I work with some landscape architects. And in the past, it was always like, I need these kind of green rectangles or I need a wall here. And it was more about the shape and kind of the visual function, as opposed to now that has come a long way. The plants that we’re using. I’m consulting on a very large cemetery, and I look at cemeteries. And when we think about space and wild spaces, et cetera, the amount of space that we devote to cemeteries or even golf courses, and full transparency. I’m not a golfer. A couple of times, I’ve done it, I’m more looking at the trees. It’s just not my thing.

 

I just look at the space and I love the trees, but looking at how those spaces are used, I’m not saying we don’t plant trees, but it’s what we’re doing. And I think when we look at that, we’re creating this sketch just for something to look pretty as opposed to something that’s alive, something that’s investing in the present and in the future. It just shows just how fortunate we are to be in this industry. I don’t want to say the power, but the potential of what we do. And this is something I keep trying to install and remind or instill in my students and remind them of the potential of what they’re going into as an industry.

 

Yeah, well, it’s cool because once the mindset is ingrained, the effort is actually quite like not. It’s not much more if we’re going to.

 

It’s empowering, actually.

 

And it’s not like it takes extra effort or design or whatever to ingrain natural function into an aesthetic design. And whether it’s a large space or a small space, residential, commercial, industrial, institutional, whatever, then there’s a couple of things too, from our side. This is really interesting. And we’re a marketing company and we help landscapers in the industry grow. And so our whole thing, we’re obsessed around helping these folks grow. And I can’t tell you how many full service design build maintenance companies are in the world with zero differentiation. That’s just what they are, right? So if their Google reviews are the same and everything else is equal, they’re going to try to compete on price. That’s no fun.

 

So when I hear you speak about this, the idea of being able, and there’s this epidemic of screen time, and you’re starting to see more and more parents wanting to break iPads or force their children outside. You’re seeing landscapers start to pick up on this and talk about building functional landscapes for getting the family unit stronger outdoors and so on and so forth. But I think there’s something really magical in the idea of a naturally designed and naturalistic and naturally functioning garden space that invites all these guests, not people, to then educate and pique the curiosity of youth in a way that makes parents feel great about what they just invested in and then have a landscape company position themselves as experts in doing like. That’s a huge opportunity to position yourself as a dedicated company, for sure.

 

Can I just comment? You mentioned youth. So during my time at the Toronto Botanical Garden, we had a lot of programs that were all about connecting children to nature, which I think is great. But I would often make some bold statements that while I think that’s important, I would say things like, make a difference now. And people are like, what are you talking about? We’re investing in the future, right? And this is where you have that conversation to push it a little bit. So I would give examples of, I would watch parents know drop off children at programs and then the know have said bye to Billy, but they’re already on their phone and they’re doing this. And I’m like, wait a second here. If we want to make a difference now, let’s inspire Billy. Let’s show him the power of butterflies or whatever.

 

But let’s show Billy’s mom and Billy’s dad. What about we do it together with them so that they’re spending more time together? So while I see this investment in connecting children, I think it’s really important that we realize it’s connecting people of all ages. And this is where your point about creating these outdoor spaces, not for only children to have less screen time, but for adults as well. And we don’t even need to justify it from our standpoint. We’ve got the evidence that is now coming out of the medical field. When you look at BC, you can get prescriptions to go out into nature, to be around trees. So it shows you the power. We are just so lucky were ahead of the game.

 

It’s also crazy that’s required.

 

That goes to show you how messed up it is. Sad, man. It is very sad that we need to get a prescription to get out there. Or isn’t it the Toronto zoo now? You can get a discount if you get, like a prescription to go to the zoo to be out into nature and we can question what nature is.

 

Yeah, that’s fine. But get outside.

 

Just get outside. Stay outside.

 

Well, even the idea, though, of connecting now and whether it’s me with my kids, I mean, when I said to youth, I kind of meant it and implied that I’m going to be out there showing them what’s going on with, say, the gold finches or whatever, and being a part of nature as it wakes up and the guests that come to this garden that aren’t people. I think it’s just really cool to be able to position yourself as a landscaper in a way that is more than just this ornamental, aesthetically oriented space that you’re building for people. So from your experience, then, what are some of the things people should be considering when designing these gardens? How can they start thinking about it differently?

 

If you were to imagine for a moment that there’s 500 landscape entrepreneurs listening to you and I speak about how we’re going to change the way we design these spaces, what’s like one or two things they can start to do to start moving in the right direction in a simple kind of perspective?

 

Well, one, I would say, is how we maintain these spaces. So, one, how you maintain and then what the plant material is. But if we look at, from the standpoint of maintenance and just some of our practices of getting rid of everything, getting rid of all of those leaves, just removing all of the potential food source and habitat that the gardens actually need, we know that raking up the leaves removes that insulating cover on the ground. It removes the source of future organic matter as that breaks down. But it also removes a beautiful layer where a lot of things like butterfly chrysalids need to overwinter, where a lot of predatory beetles will stay in that leaf litter.

 

So if you rake that clean and get rid of it, and then we’re bringing in mulches, I think, as an industry, we’re so fixated on mulches and using them when mulches are there, but we feel we need to get rid of stuff and bring them in. So I think it’s how we maintain things, how we prune, when we prune, the amount that we prune, if we even should be pruning and cutting things back. The evidence now shows that leaving stubble in the garden for solitary bees to create more habitat, all of these practices, it does bring a challenge into the aesthetics is, well, then it looks messy. But from what I’m seeing, messy is alive, messy is habitat, messy is biodiversity. So how do we find that blend?

 

And I certainly experienced that even when I was at the Toronto botanical Garden, because it was all about the show. And if we wanted to leave leaf litter, it’s like, well, do you not have enough people to pick it up? Do you not have. But when you explain to someone, Rob, that why we’re leaving that leaf litter, that just becomes the organic matter that is going to feed those plants. We only need to look at a forested situation. And who picks up those leaves, Rob? Who takes them to the composter, then who brings in the mulch layer? Right. So how we maintain from our actual physical practices, our concept of fertilizing? Yes, we fertilize and they can be bigger, but how big do things need to be and the consequences of some of those actions.

 

Looking at things, what is a weed, what isn’t a weed, and then take to the next step is looking at what we’re planting. And we have certainly seen the, I don’t want to say the rise in popularity, but the refocus and interest on native plants. This actually concerns me a great deal in our industry because there seems to be this using native plants and if it’s not native plants, it’s a bad thing. And I don’t want to see a division. I think that gets us nowhere. I’m a fanatical plant person. It’s a huge problem. I just go crazy over plants. So if I’m approaching yourself, for example, as a new homeowner and talking to you about plants to add to your garden, if I can expand my plant knowledge and include.

 

I do love my native plants and I use a lot of them, but if I’m looking carefully and choosing plants that are going to support bumblebees when they emerge out of the spring versus sterile plants, and it’s all of these things. And I just want people to realize that it’s not one group of plants, another. It’s about the power of plants and making the choice of what we’re doing. So I think there, as an industry, we also need to do a little bit of a reset, a look back. And I think there’s been a number of attempts starts and go back with growing of native plants, growing more local plants. I see it moving forward with growers, but there are challenges, particularly since we’ve trained so many of our retailers. Sorry. So many of our customers that go into retail about that perfect product.

 

I mean, I came from retail. I was very good at making people buy things that they didn’t think that they needed. Because I would shop my wholesalers, I would go down to the food terminal at 01:00 in the morning and buy what I often referred to as the candy. I know I can buy 200 of those because they’re perfect, they look great and they’re going to fly off the shelves. So I think we need to look at that a little bit more carefully as well.

 

Well, and then I think you’re kind of touching on this huge opportunity or this huge component in the system of demand. If demand is going to dictate supply for the most part. Because if you start showing people stuff that they don’t want to buy and they don’t buy it, money doesn’t get made. So there’s an interesting piece here of, like, where does it start? Is there a homeowner component? Is it commercial growers? Is it the greenhouses that need to start bringing more of this into their plant variety and the overall mix of what they’re selling people so that people start to see it more? How do we kind of start bridging this gap from this old aesthetic viewpoint into a more natural perspective?

 

Well, we’re getting support from outside of the industry. When we look at the global challenges that we are facing. It’s not horticulture that’s saying a lack of biodiversity. It’s on a much larger context. So we’re getting this support, and if you think about people talking about wanting to do things for the environment, for bees, for biodiversity, et cetera, the discussion of native plants, it has really increased, and it’s not so much from within the industry. So here’s where we, as an industry, can be very conscious of what is happening and be able to supply that. I remember my attempt, I want to say, dating myself here, maybe about 25 years ago, a good friend of mine had a native plant nursery, and so we devoted a space on the counter, and the garden center was in Toronto. It was all about turnover, right?

 

We had big taxes to pay. And I remember talking to my boss, and he’s like, you have the freedom to buy what you want. And I said, I want to do this new category. We brought in the native plants. And Rob, man, oh, man, those suckers did not move. I tried to reinvent, move them around. I would buy one every day, that kind of stuff. And it just wasn’t the time for it. Right? The thought wasn’t there for them. And it’s too bad, because they’re really fantastic plants. And I will admit, in some cases, you look at things like uvularias. They’re not overly impressive in a pot, even at two years old. So how do you compete with something like a beautiful, lush pasta that’s got three crowns or a bearded iris that’s in flower?

 

I can come and say to you, here’s this wonderful little sanguine area. And you’ll be looking at it like, yeah, okay, buddy. I want color. Sure, Paul. Exactly. And you watch them. They put it in their cart, and then they put it down somewhere else in the garden center. So in that way, we’re getting support from outside of the industry. See, Rob, you got me all excited now. I forgot the question.

 

No, it’s. So maybe it’s like, are there some native plants or naturally oriented types of plants that are a good starting point for people if they want to introduce this to folks. So whether I’m a greenhouse, a grower, or a landscape contractor that’s helping people with softscape installations and designing their gardens, are there some species that I might draw from that maybe I’m not aware of right now that can help me accomplish this transition towards a more aesthetic and naturally functional garden? So that way, I’m not just trying to bring people things that they don’t think look good.

 

Yeah, well, I think one that we’ve heard a great deal about is just the butterfly weed. The whole asclepia, that whole group, whether it’s tuberosa incarnata or asclepia syriaca, we’ve all heard about the plight of the monarch butterfly. So by incorporating this plant in the garden, and as you’re explaining that to your client, I say, I want to put butterfly weed in your garden. You’re like, butterfly weed. I don’t want a weed in my garden. But listen to me for a moment, Rob. This plant is the sole food source. This whole genus is the sole food source. And maybe we won’t use genus because then people get all scared of the science, maybe, sure. But this group of plants is the sole food source.

 

Not only do the adults feed on the flower, but they need the leaves for the caterpillar to feed on that. And so one of the first steps, people, is like, well, wait a sec. You’re asking me to put plants in my garden that are going to get eaten. Yeah. Because of the power of that. You support that. And I can tell you over and over, doesn’t matter the age when. When someone finds a monarch butterfly caterpillar on their milkweed, whether it’s tuporosa incarnate, that’s the best. We all become seven years old, we all get the shakes, and it’s all, everyone come in and look, and it’s that power and potential. But then what we do is we take it beyond that.

 

And so I know I ruffle some feathers when I say to people, we’re focusing on monarchs, we’re focusing on the kind of the poster child, but what about everything else? What about the little brown, little skipper and this kind of thing? So think about the other plants. And when we look at that is a good example of one group of plants, particularly when you think about diverse soil conditions, right? If you’ve got really dry soils, well, you want to go with tuberosa. If you’ve got a bit more moisture, go with incarnate. So we can find plants within that same group that can cover a range of soil differences.

 

Yeah, that’s cool.

 

So I think that’s a very good example. And once you do that, it then just like what I have found with people I consult with, it’s like, well, what else? What other things support the birds, bring in birds.

 

And so what are some of the things that you see commonly? Right. Again, going back to this idea of imagine 500 entrepreneurs are listening to this right now and they’re like, Paul, I want to start doing this, but I got to go do some research. But I’d love for you to tell me maybe two more opportunities to just start moving down this direction.

 

So I see a lot with service berries, people using service berries. So here’s where we can connect aesthetics with function. To me, service berries are one of the most pretty plants in the garden because all year round, I think they look fantastic. I love the gray bark in the winter, that smooth bark. I love their shape and form for winter architecture. Can’t beat those chains of white flowers. When they open, they support then the fruit. Well, if you’re lucky to get the fruit because, man, the birds come in and get them and that’s okay, right? That’s okay. The health benefits, my understanding is they’re even better for you than things like blueberries. Well, there’s a plus there, right, if you can get some and then fall color. So there’s another one that I think is absolutely incredible.

 

And then you go to that broad group of plants so that we don’t get too specific. Any of the daisy like flowers, any of the compositated or asterisk. So the rude of echias, the purple cone flowers, purple cone flower, echinacea is one we have heard not only in the Horde industry, but also in the medical industry about its value as a medicinal plant. I do not, and this needs to come across, I do not encourage people for self medicine to grow things, consult professionals, that kind of stuff. But here’s a plant that has got this profile, but it has so many benefits in terms of not only long blooming, wide soil conditions. There are many native selections that are out there, beautiful flowers. You can even use them as a cut. I remind people, be careful with cuts because then we bring it in.

 

What are we leaving out there in the garden but leaving that standing right now and the seed heads that develop on that, watching the goldfitches pick away at that. And then in the winter as know kind of begin to unravel and stuff. You’ve got nature’s original mohawks each one of them is very. Those. Those are the big three. But my fear then becomes, Rob, is that every landscape we see all of a sudden has service berries, milkweed, and purple cone flour. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But we need to understand, and this is where we, as an industry, have not necessarily learned. Our lesson is we do the same thing over and over, and we end up getting these monocultures of all of the same plant material.

 

And then if a disease or a pests come in, it’s like an open salad bar. Right? They just go from my house to your house to this and that. So we need to really mix that up and diversify that. But I think those are three good, very introduction plants. And the other one, I would say, that can challenge people is goldenrod, because people still, the Soladegos, they still think hay fever, and we know that’s not right. They still think the roadside, solidago canadensis, that is quite aggressive and can really move. But there’s. Is it 25, at least 25 species native to Ontario, one that can even grow in dry, shaded location that’s in flower in my garden right now. So you tell me discovering, and this is, again, where I get very excited, because I’m still learning about plants.

 

Like, some of them I didn’t even know. Right. It’s like, whoa, where have you been all my life? That kind of stuff.

 

That’s cool. So if there was a resource that you could point someone to learn more about this stuff, where would you point them?

 

Oh, you are good. You are very good at your questions. I would say one of my absolute favorites is one that I recommend to my students. I even buy copies and share them with students, is particularly because of local. We’ve realized the importance of being as local as possible. So just like we tell people to buy local and eat local, I’m also trying to encourage people to read local. Right. So one of my local heroes is Lorraine Johnson. I mean, have known her for years, but one of her books, the recent one, and it’s actually in the other room, she wrote that with Dr. Sheila Cola. A garden for the rusty patch bumblebee. It’s got a longer title than that, but you open that up, and it talks. The diversity of plants and the specific relationships that they have. So I’ll give an example.

 

Even things like the native strawberry, most people are like, wait, we have a native strawberry? Yeah, we do. You’re not making strawberry pies out of it, right? No, but that little plant. That little plant rob, did you know. Let me ask you this. Did you know that little plant can support over 71 species of native insects?

 

Oh, I have no idea, man. You’re blowing my mind with all this stuff.

 

I had no idea. And how long have I been selling that plant? All these years? I’m like, what? So it’s these options and these opportunities. There’s many other. I think all landscapers should be encouraged. Note I said encouraged to read works by Rick Dark and Douglas Talomet and how they’ve really challenged us to relook at landscapes as potential connectors to habitats. That’s so, you know, when I look out into my backyard and I see that hawk ripping apart that pigeon. Yeah, I feel bad for the pigeon, but it’s like, hey, wait a second here. Look at this diversity that’s been supported. And maybe the pigeon is the best example, but we’ve had fox come through the garden. We get all sorts of creatures in the garden, many of which I still don’t even recognize.

 

Right. Well, I think the whole idea, though, of just, like, trying to broaden the perspective and understand this stuff more from, whether it’s Douglas Talomet or Lorraine Johnson, whoever it might be, from a very selfish marketing perspective, in terms of trying to help folks differentiate themselves, there is an appetite, to your point, macro level, we’re talking about climate change and a lack of biodiversity and monocultures, and there is a demand for. It might not be the majority of a marketplace, but it’s definitely not just 2% anymore. So being able to differentiate by becoming educated and studied with regard to how you can help people create a naturally functional, anesthetically beautiful outdoor space is a wicked opportunity to differentiate.

 

But even just looking at what you’re doing, just look at how we’ve gone from cutting lawns. I mean, I’ve been around a long time. I remember cutting lawns and bagging the grass clippings and taking them out to curves and stuff like that, and how they would ignite because they become so hot. And then went to mulching mowers, leaving them in place. What is that doing? That’s just simulating what nature does, right? Nature drops its leaves. We just cut them and drop them, right? And put those on the lawn. So we’ve gone to mulching. Now we’re looking at, is it electrical power? Is it battery powered? Is it gas powered? Everyone’s been felt by the price of gas, going to the gas station and stuff like that. So you may not be necessarily a champion for, say, the insects or the birds.

 

But I think you should be a champion for the globe. I truly believe deep down, we all want to feel good about what we do and making that contribution. And I’m not saying this to try and make people feel bad about what they do, but what I want them to realize and recognize is the potential, the amazing potential of what we do as an.

 

I mean, the idea around land stewards, I think, is pretty poignant. And I think one of the things Jim said, landry, a couple of months ago when we did his, he was talking about how this is really one of, if not the only truly green industry where we’re actually designing and planting and literally landscaping and curating an outdoor space. And so if we can start to do this a bit more, being a bit more naturally minded, to be able to encourage, I like what you said to the guests of the garden, not just people. It can be pretty impactful, especially if we start doing it as an industry.

 

So one of the things, though, because we only have a couple of minutes left here that we need touch on, is the fact that you’re in front of students, you’re in front of, literally the future of the industry. And I hear time and time again, there is no staff, there is no hope. We need to build robots because there’s no one that could do this stuff. What do you say to the entrepreneurs in the space right now that are maybe doubting the future of the industry based on your experience in the classroom?

 

Well, I hear from individuals saying, yeah, people are out there, but they don’t want to work or they want to start as the manager or the owner and stuff like this. And what I tell my students is I can come to you with this enthusiasm and excitement and this knowledge that they think I have, but it’s not so much knowledge. It’s more experience. And to do that, you need to be able to start and be prepared to do whatever it takes. So in terms of what I’m hearing, that there isn’t a workforce out there.

 

I think we need to look at what the tasks are, and I think we need to bring the two sides together because I recognize in the students those that are really working, really prepared to work hard and want to kind of move their way up and gain that experience. But I also do see a kind of immediacy. They want to get in and, boom, just get to the top or want to have the growers that has 100 polyhouses and no one starts that way. Right. So I think it’s important that we remind the students that are coming into the industry is the importance of gaining experience, putting in your time, giving and getting. And I don’t mean when I say giving, not volunteering your time, but I think volunteering is very important at public events and stuff like that.

 

But you got to put in. I look back at some of the tasks I did, and mine was to pay my way through school, but it’s made me who I am. But I also think that the industry needs to take a look at some of the tasks that it’s asking of people, and I think we need to bring those two together. But there are people that are out there. There are people who are out there who really want to make a difference and want to try and find that fit. What I would say is I sometimes look at some of the individuals going into the industry, and I think they’re very quick to put labels or to say, well, this isn’t the right fit for me, so I’m going to do this. I’m going to do this.

 

And I think you need to build relationships. I think you need to find that fit. And sometimes you need to work at that because those relationships become really critical.

 

Yeah, that’s cool. How long have you been in the classroom for now?

 

Only since 2019, so not very long, but whatever.

 

Four years. And the amount of students you would teach in a year would be what, about 150, right. So we’re talking, whatever, 600 people that are going to represent the future of this industry. And the enthusiasm, passion. What do you say are the qualities you’re seeing from these folks coming through the system right now that are learning the industry?

 

When I see the reaction in them, when they realize the potential of what they’re doing far beyond producing that lovely crop, when you see that light bulb go off, it’s just magic. Absolutely incredible. But I also see a worry in them. I see a concern as to how they’re going to be able to make it. How do they get into this giant industry? And this is where I do believe there’s this amazing opportunity for these incredible people. Our industry, the green industry, the horticulture industry, is filled with so much talent, so much experience, so many people who want to share that information.

 

So sometimes I think what maybe the right thing to do is think about how we’re going to bring in these individuals and these new individuals with these experienced individuals and how they can share that information together or that experience together, almost like a mentorship. Maybe we look at it a different way as opposed to when I finished school, it was, hey, I was on the potting line, and it’s no disrespect to being on the potted line, on the potting line or pinching mums. Now we have mums that are self branching, all that kind of stuff, but maybe slightly different in terms of making those connections to foster that.

 

Yeah, that’s cool. And then what do you see as something that these people care about when they’re in the classroom? Like when their passion lights up or when their concerns are passionate?

 

They’re worried about the world. They’re worried about the world.

 

Yeah. So that’s what I’m saying, though. As an employer of the potential to become an employer of these students, what do I need to be considering in terms of what they actually care about? Because if you look at the careers page, if a landscape entrepreneur has a careers page, it’s not very creative. There’s this job with these duties and this benefit to come work here, pay, benefits, vacation, whatever, it doesn’t really speak too much to what people actually care about. But what do you see over the last three or four years of what people actually care about in terms of where they’re going to go next after school?

 

Well, it’s the opportunity to learn, but also to give back to be stewards. So it’s just like you had mentioned earlier about being land stewards. Maybe we look at how we, instead of being landscapers, we’re land stewards. These postings need to show how individuals are not only going to gain experience, but also be able to give back and be a part of something much bigger, other than maintaining four acres, cutting the lawn twice a week, edging and trimming. Our actions of what we do on those four acres, Rob, go far beyond that property line. Right. They extend far beyond there. So I believe we need to really look at what we’re doing and what we’re advertising of what we’re doing and maybe tweak that a little bit to show either the opportunity or the care.

 

I love it when you come back to what the students care about, like many, they’re worried about what they’re either going to inherit or what they’re going into. And so I think we as an industry needs to show that we’re aware, willing to make changes. They may not happen overnight, but realize as an industry, the power that we have to do much more than just care for gardens.

 

Yeah, I love it. And I mean, that whole idea of positioning the industry, and if you’re an entrepreneur and your business as a steward of the land, I think is really powerful because it can encapsulate a lot of different principles, concepts. The way you communicate with people that are going to be joining your team, I think that can be. It can make a massive difference and help somebody go from a world where they believe there is no work to a world where there’s actually applications coming through the door because they actually want to be part of something like that, something more than just the company that they’re a part of.

 

So well said.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. I know you’ve got your own show, so if anybody wants to tune and listen to that, can you just give people a bit of a heads up on where they can?

 

Thank you. It’s a live call and so on CBC Radio one. So every Monday from 1230 to one, I do Ontario today. So we take live calls. And then in the late spring and summer, we also do here and now on CBC Radio Thursday afternoons. But that’s from May through September. But 365 days of the year, every Monday we do Ontario today.

 

Awesome. And if someone wanted to reach out because they wanted to access this crazy rich Rolodex of information you have within our industry, or maybe have you come talk or something like that, how would they get a hold of you?

 

If they’re looking for a talk? Please understand, I need time because I booked two years in advance, but please reach out to me. I’m looking to learn they can reach out through me through email at Pzamit at Niagaracolege, Ca.

 

Cool. And we’ll put that on the listing. So again, thanks for taking the time, man. I know you’re obviously desired, two years out booking this kind of stuff, the knowledge you have in the industry, inspiring to say the least. So, Paul, thank you so much for doing this.

 

Well, thank you for making this opportunity and connecting these aspects. So the thanks goes back to you.

 

All right, cheers and thanks for listening to another episode of the IM Landscape Growth podcast. All right, cheers, Paul.

 

Take care.

 

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