Landscaping Owners: If You’re Doing It All, You’re Doing It Wrong—Peter Guinane Explains Why

00:00
Rob Murray
Welcome back to another episode of the IM Landscape Growth podcast. I have an amazing guest who’s been in the industry for a little bit of time, Peter Ghanain. Thank you so much for joining us on the show, Peter.

00:46
Peter Guinane
Glad to be here, Rob.

00:48
Rob Murray
Peter is the co-founder and CEO of Oriole Landscaping, also co-founder of Knowledge Free Consulting, has been a member of CNLA for, you know, over a decade, and a board member of the Green Cities Foundation. You’ve been actively involved in the industry across the board. So, I’m pumped to get your perspective on the theme of this show, which is the primary growth constraint holding entrepreneurs back. Maybe before we just get into it, I know it’s tough to do Cole’s note summary on whatever the better part of 38 years in the green industry looks like, but can you just give the audience a little bit of context in terms of, you know, where you’re coming from and what you’re up to these days with the organizations you’re a part of?

01:33
Peter Guinane
Yeah, so I started a long time ago, as you hinted. I don’t know if I need to date myself, but it was several decades ago. And so I’ve had a lot of, you know, experience trial and error, and where we’re at right now is we’ve been able to grow the company to the point where we aren’t involved in the day-to-day of the business. My partner, George Avari, with whom I started the company, has actually progressed to the point where he is no longer involved in the landscape division at all and is only involved in the consulting portion of our adventure. So, right now, we are in another growth phase.

02:27
Peter Guinane
We’ve had a couple of growth phases along our timeline, and at each level, there’s a different set of challenges and opportunities, and understanding what those challenges are and how to overcome them to get to the next level is part of that journey. And, right now, we’re in another growth phase, so it’s epic still.

02:55
Rob Murray
Well, we do these talks on all these different shows across Canada and the U.S., And I always show a slide of Michael Gerber, and he says, if you have a business that depends on you don’t own a business, you have a job. And you have the worst job in the world because you work for a lunatic, which is the entrepreneur. So I’m pumped that you guys are at that phase because I think that’s kind of like, at least from my point of view, the goal of a true entrepreneur, you know, to build an autonomous organization that is doing great work for clients, generating good cash flow and you’re not involved in the day to day.

03:31
Rob Murray
And so, you know, sharing those stories and experiences you’ve had and maybe where you’ve gotten some scar tissue to help people not hurt themselves as much as they’re doing is kind of the whole point of the show. So, thanks for being here and sharing with me. So let’s just get into it then. What do you see these days as the primary growth constraint holding entrepreneurs back in the green industry?

03:56
Peter Guinane
Yeah, I mean, you’re not wrong with your quote. You know, the owner is usually the obstacle. You know, there’s a. Most of us start our businesses as, you know, as a sole proprietor. We have a couple of employees; we control everything that happens on the job site, and we control everything that happens in the sale. We are aware of everything that’s going on in the company. And, and we’re successful. Those of us who continue to be in business are in business because we’re good at it. And we feel like that is, you know, a success. And trying to scale that model is very difficult because you can’t know everything that goes on in a bigger company. You can’t control every conversation. And you have to start assigning some of that responsibility to the staff that you work with.

04:56
Peter Guinane
There have to be systems in place to communicate important information so that the customer knows what they need to know, and the staff needs to have the information they need. And that’s the challenge. We had a growth period at Oriole Landscaping between 96 and 2006, which was sort of our first growth phase. We were a fledgling company. We figured out how to do that really well. Then, we were able to scale that in an order of magnitude of about 10 years. So it went up, and we grew about 10 times our size over that 10-year period, which was fantastic. But we hit a ceiling because that structure had a limit, you know, so we’re doing whatever, 8 million or whatever by that point. And that was our ceiling like there’s. Because you know, George and I were managing every aspect of the business.

05:56
Peter Guinane
There were two of us, so we were able to sort of divide and conquer a lot of those responsibilities. But there really is a ceiling if we’re managing that stuff. And it was about that time, 2006, 7, 8 when we realized that we didn’t want to own a job. We put up a mantra in the office for us to become the least needed people in the office. That was our motto. We worked hard, and it wasn’t easy, but even to build a team that could take on a lot of those accountabilities. And that’s the challenge because there are a lot of great people in our industry, but for various reasons, maybe they aren’t long-term employees. I’ve had some great people who have moved on to join family out west or to start their own business.

06:52
Peter Guinane
And finding people that are capable and willing and are happy to stay with the company, that’s a real challenge. But you got to keep trying. We keep developing new staff, new leaders within the company, and enough of them have stayed and have embraced our mission and have taken on leadership roles that slowly George and I have been able to pass on a lot of those responsibilities now.

07:22
Rob Murray
And that’s free to say big deal. Yeah.

07:24
Peter Guinane
And that’s that. So we plateaued 2008 or whatever, there was a recession, so that was part of the reason we slowed down our growth. But were able to rejig our company and it took some time and relinquish some of our control. And now we’ve been able to lay plans for our next level of growth. So that’s where we are right now.

07:47
Rob Murray
Amazing. It’s interesting because I asked this question to dozens, if not hundreds, of people, but I think this is whatever episode 60 or something like that for this show. The most common answer is that it’s hard to find staff. But the ones that are the most successful, like the entrepreneurs I speak to, that have pulled them out, pulled themselves out of day-to-day operations, are at a point where they can be doing other things regardless of size, is the leader, is the growth constraint. So for the audience listening, you know, when you say you build a mantra around, you know, be the least required people inside the organization, and let’s just assume for a minute that there are a couple of people listening there, maybe want to do the same thing.

08:37
Rob Murray
What were the first couple of steps you had to take to make that a reality?

08:43
Peter Guinane
So you have to know what your roles Are. We have to know who is doing what within the organization. And what your process is. So, you have to understand who is communicating with the client. How does that information get shared with the other staff? Because once you’ve defined all of those steps and what is involved in each of those steps, it’s easier to train somebody to perform that duty. Some of those things are mundane work, some of them are interesting work, and some of them are challenging. And there are people who, you know, prefer one or the other, and you find people that are good at it. At those tasks and. And those people will grow into those roles. The. But it’s. Yeah, it’s. It’s definitely a challenge, but understanding who’s doing what has to be done and how you communicate between the people.

09:39
Peter Guinane
As the owner, I would have the sale with the customer, create the quote for the customer, and then be on-site executing the job. So it wasn’t really important that every conversation with the customer got put right.

09:54
Rob Murray
Because you’re involved.

09:55
Peter Guinane
Yeah, because I knew I was going to be there, and I would be building the job. And I didn’t even have to tell the people around me that the client wanted that tree in the back pruned, because I would just do it because I was on the site and learning how all that information needs to be documented and communicated. And, you know, that’s. That’s an easy first step.

10:21
Rob Murray
So let’s just dig. Let’s dig into that one for a quick second. Right? I hear a lot of times people say things like, well, we just need a CRM, and then all of our problems will go away, and then we’ll be able to automate everything, and the communication will be better. Then they get a CRM, and it’s not being used. And it actually gets worse because they’re still practicing what they were doing before, not documenting things. So when it comes to identifying the roles and figuring out what needs to happen, and I think what you said, there is kind of a layer a lot of people maybe Ms. Is like, what needs to be communicated, you know, whether it’s to customers or to team.

11:03
Peter Guinane
What.

11:03
Rob Murray
What would you say to somebody who wants to take that on? As something they want to do, you know, this year? Where do they start and how do they, you know, who’s involved and what do they need to do to say, okay, you know, we’re making progress on getting better at this?

11:17
Peter Guinane
Yeah, yeah, no, we have a. We have a document that we created, a simple spreadsheet where we list every role in the company and every team member in the company. And we as. We literally have people who are responsible for that role, who are accountable, who are backups, who are in training for that role. And you get a. It’s pretty easy to see when it’s laid down on paper who is doing work that they maybe shouldn’t be doing, who is capable of taking on some of those roles. And you have those conversations with your staff. Would you be interested in having some more responsibility for customer connections or following up with past customers? There’s a whole bunch of things that you can do that are, you know, probably not getting done.

12:14
Peter Guinane
And there are people in your organization that might be fully capable of taking.

12:19
Rob Murray
That on or excited to, right?

12:21
Peter Guinane
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, a lot of. Some people don’t like responsibility. I have some staff that are happy to be a skilled labor on a crew and they’re like, I don’t want to be a crew leader. And it’s like, you could easily do it, but they feel like there’s too much responsibility, and that’s okay. You don’t want to push somebody into a role they’re going to fail at. So we work on, you know, building them more slowly, which is fine.

12:49
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s cool.

12:50
Peter Guinane
You will have leaders in your company, and if they know the pathways ahead of them are opportunities, the people who are interested, eager, and ambitious will reach for those. And if you don’t provide those opportunities, they will start looking elsewhere. If you put a ceiling on because you want to have control over all those tasks, you will stifle the people underneath you. So documenting and providing opportunities for your staff will not only relieve your burden, but it will engage the staff that you have, and you’re more likely to keep your staff.

13:29
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s cool. And one of the things you said there a couple of minutes ago, and I think a lot of people miss it, is that it’s the role that you document first, and then you say, okay, what team member is responsible? And I love what you said. Who’s responsible for this role? Who’s the backup for this role, and who’s in training for this role? You know, now you’re really starting to build some pathways and clarity because the role exists in the organization regardless of the person. And then it’s a matter. And then sometimes I bet if people go through that exercise, and you might do this with Knowledge Tree, with folks, they see that there’s a role that no one’s responsible for, and then. Well, that’s probably where there are a bunch of gaps, for sure.

14:09
Peter Guinane
Yeah.

14:09
Rob Murray
And so is there, is there a template like, or a guideline for roles for organizations at different sizes and different core focuses, or is everyone unique?

14:20
Peter Guinane
Yeah, obviously, in smaller organizations, people will be wearing more hats, but that’s the easiest way to see what’s needed if you want to go into a growth period. If you said, if I had more customers, I could have more of this and more of that, but you have to have a different corporate structure. If you’re going to have a bigger company, if you’re going to have more people, you’re going to have to give up some of those hats. You know, there’s an extra qualifier we put into our spreadsheet, and that is if that role that you are doing gives you energy or drains you. Because there are some people who do jobs that they really don’t like. So, personally, I don’t like doing bookkeeping or paperwork, you know, and I imagine there are a lot of people who don’t.

15:11
Peter Guinane
But if you can identify those tasks that you’re actually not that thrilled to do, then that’s where you can pass those on first because you want to be energized and enthusiastic when you come to work. So if you’re a crew leader and you don’t like having to do, you know, cleaning up the job site, you get a laborer to do that for you. And the laborer loves the idea of that responsibility because they’ve never been on a job site before. So, you know, sweeping is a big responsibility that a laborer would like to do. And, and if you’re, and if you can teach that person a skill, then, you know, you might not like cutting stone, but I guarantee you the laborer learning how to cut stone will be thrilled.

15:57
Peter Guinane
And you know, all those little tasks, and they go all the way up to the point of, you know, bookkeeping and, you know, HR management. And you know, I’m not particularly fond of managing the staff on a day-to-day basis either. So, I have an HR manager. You know, that’s something I was happy to give to an employee who is better at it than I am. So, you know, documenting this stuff, understanding what gives you energy and what drains you is probably the, you know, gives you a, a priority list on which things you should delegate first.

16:39
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s cool. And you don’t know where to delegate if you don’t have it all documented to see where it all lies. Yeah, it’s interesting, and you talked about this at the beginning. When you’re, you know, on this journey, you’ve developed a lot of people. Some of them stayed with you for a long time. Some of them have found other gigs, or they’ve moved across the country, maybe even started their own company. I’ve heard this a lot from entrepreneurs. Like I don’t want to train people up, so they leave and become my competition. What do you say to people who are thinking that way?

17:08
Peter Guinane
Yeah, I mean, there’s an old quote that I’m sure most of you have heard before. You know, what happens if I train them and leave? Then the converse is, what happens if I don’t train them and they stay? So, so yeah, you’re better off. You know, our industry has a lot of smaller companies, and there’s a ton of work out there. Most of the companies are poorly managed. So if you can have a well-managed company, you will be successful, you will have customers, and you will be able to make a profit. You don’t need to try and push anyone else down in your market. You don’t need to hold anyone back. There is enough work to go around to well-managed companies if you’re, you know.

18:00
Rob Murray
Yeah.

18:00
Peter Guinane
If you’re struggling, it’s probably because there’s some, you know, inefficiencies in your business and it’s, I guarantee you it’s not the competition from your own staff.

18:11
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s well said. It was interesting. I’m not sure you ever follow Alex Hermosa. Anybody listening to this? I would recommend checking him out, but he said, you know, if you just show up, follow through on the promises that you make, and do that over and over again, you’re in the top 10% just out of the gate. Right. And so maybe focusing on that and then helping people grow, not worrying about them leaving, might be a better use of energy. I think that’s to your point, too, about developing leaders like you give people an opportunity to progress. It’s almost addictive, and they get energized by it.

18:50
Peter Guinane
Yeah, absolutely. And I have had some of my staff leave and start their own businesses, and you know, it’s not a challenge to my business. I haven’t lost business to them. You know, if I have, it’s not much, but more importantly, I will get an ally out in the field. I know that they do good work. I know that they charge A fair price. Occasionally, I am overbooked, and I need help with a sub-trade so I can call in a past employee to help me complete a project. I know the work that they do because they work for me. They know what I expect because they worked for me. And so we can actually help each other get through work because there’s so much work out there. There’s so much.

19:41
Rob Murray
Yeah, it’s interesting. As a marketing company, we experience the same things. We’ve had people start their own marketing companies. It’s actually kind of like a feather in our cap when someone leaves to start their own business, and if they end up doing one that’s in a similar space, then that’s okay, too. But for the exact same reasons you just mentioned. Like, we do sometimes ask for help from past employees who have started their own companies. And I think for anybody listening who’s worried about building somebody up to the point where they have enough confidence to leave. I just think that’s almost like the best outcome for anybody leaving.

20:14
Rob Murray
Again, I’m not saying you want everybody to leave, but if they were to leave, if you’ve given them the confidence to go start something on their own, I think that’s kind of a beautiful thing.

20:22
Peter Guinane
Yeah. So, by the same token, I’m not encouraging any of my existing staff to go out on their own. I don’t make it. I know it’s hard to run a business. And some of these companies that I subcontract to get work when I’m busy, but when I’m not busy, like last year was a slower year. You know, we, the COVID bump, came and went. And last year, I had enough work to keep my staff busy, and I didn’t share any work with anyone else. So when it’s tough, it gets really tough when you’re out on your own.

20:55
Rob Murray
Well, I think a lot of people, when they start to, when they start their own business, they realize it’s not about just doing what they were doing when they were with you pretty quick, very quickly, they understand the pressures that come along with making sure the payroll is good, and everybody’s getting fed, let alone all the stuff that comes along with owning a business. Okay. So we talked about the idea of taking the first couple of steps to get yourself out of the day-to-day. So we’re documenting all the roles in the organization, identifying what team members are responsible, who’s backup, who’s in training, and whether they get energy from it or not. Same for you. How many hats are people wearing? And now we’re starting to make some progress. Now.

21:35
Rob Murray
If you look at, you know, the next step of removing from day to day, like, not all together, but, like, you know, really making progress to removing from day to day. What. What do you see from, like, the consulting side? So if we, you know, I know you guys did this at Oriole yourselves, but now you’re at, you knowledge tree. You’re working with, you know, dozens, if not hundreds of other landscape entrepreneurs. What do you see as the number one thing holding them back from letting go?

22:07
Peter Guinane
A lot of people have pride in their work. There’s. There are a lot of type A people who are, you know, running businesses, and they don’t like the idea of something not being perfect. And that’s a challenge. Is it that the people who work with you when you assign a task may not do it exactly the same way you would do it? 99 times out of 100, it’s probably still okay, even if it’s not identical. And if you want to run in and fix it and squash their, you know, independence, then they will not learn. If you can allow some of your staff to make their own mistakes along the way, they will learn from those mistakes. You can coach them to do better. If it is substandard, you might even learn something that they can provide that you weren’t doing.

23:07
Peter Guinane
They might better at something than you were. So I think that’s the hardest lesson is to say it’s okay if it’s not identical. It’s okay if I don’t have the personal relationship with that customer. And, and I’m not going to necessarily lose the customer. It’s not going to. It’s not going to cost the company money. That’s. That’s a hard hurdle to get over, but once you’re over it gets much easier.

23:37
Rob Murray
Yeah. It’s like a relief. So what. So if you, like, people listening to this right now are like, yeah, I, I agree. I don’t want that to happen. I don’t like the idea of letting go because of. Yeah, what do you share with them? Help them understand to get their head right to say it’s okay to make that transition. Like, I know that there are people that are probably, you know, better suited for that. Like, they’re just, yep, it’s all good. We’re just gonna do it. They’re gonna mess up. It’s all good. We’ll figure it out. And then there are some people who just, no, that’s not okay. And then they make a transition. What is one of those key things someone can start trying to figure out? How do they do that?

24:19
Peter Guinane
Well, I guess there are two things. One is to recognize that you’re not perfect either, so you can’t expect perfection from your staff. It’s. It’s really not realistic, obviously, but it’s just not fair because you are not perfect. That you know that, that’s not hard to illustrate. The key is that when something happens incorrectly, when there’s a mistake, or when a customer is not happy with something that happens, you have to have a plan in place to catch that and correct it. That’s. That’s the key. Customers don’t expect perfection either, but they do expect good service. They do expect a response.

25:02
Rob Murray
If the ownership of the issue.

25:04
Peter Guinane
Absolutely. If something isn’t right on the job site, the best scenario is that you catch it first, and you bring it to the customer’s attention, and you say, hey, we aren’t happy with how this turned out. We’re going to fix it, and we’ll have it taken care of as soon as possible. Customers like, oh, I didn’t even notice, and now all of a sudden you’re a hero. Or they said, I was going to say something, but my, you know, my husband told me not to say anything. And then, you know, we were debating what to do. And I’m so happy that you brought it up or, you know, you fixed it, and they never noticed. However, you can be more proud of the work that you do, and your employees learn from it.

25:45
Peter Guinane
So how you respond to situations is more important than it being perfect, you know, the first time.

25:52
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s cool. I mean, one of the things that I think you’re alluding to, if not explicitly stating, we talk about this a lot, is you have to inspect what you expect. And I know a lot of folks, you know, they’ll get a crew going, and then they’ll think, okay, cool, that’s taken care of. I no longer need to worry about this at all, and I’m going to focus my attention somewhere else. But then some stuff is not being caught over here. So when you look at QA or, you know, quality assurance inspecting sites, say, after they’re done, what does that look like for folks? Can you give some people a tip or two? Hey, you’re giving some autonomy to some people in the organization, but you also want to make sure there’s no mold in the fridge.

26:37
Rob Murray
So what do they do? What do you do with that?

26:39
Peter Guinane
Yeah, no, it is. And, it’s a fine line, too, because if you’re going in to nitpick, your workers will not appreciate that. Right. So, we have to look at these as learning opportunities. So we walk through and, you know, your staff knows what a good project is because, you know, presumably you haven’t given them control unless, you know, they have the competence to do the work properly. So if you’re going to go inspect something, it’s probably best to ask them if they’re satisfied, like perfect, you know, and you give them the opportunity to own the job first because they can say, you know, I had trouble with these cuts on this side over here because of this tree. And, and you can say, well, you know, is that, is there, is that good enough? Does that meet our standard?

27:33
Peter Guinane
Or is the customer going to be happy? Or is there something we can do to make it better? And you give it to the employee to solve that problem first? And if they’re struggling, they might ask, I don’t know how to make it better. Or, you know, the customer said they weren’t happy with it, and I don’t know what to do. You know, obviously, you can offer solutions or suggestions. You know, you coach them into the outcome that you want. But yeah, you don’t want to come in and start criticizing the work.

28:02
Rob Murray
Putting X is on a bunch of work with a red marker. You know, it’s really interesting you say that. I was at the NALP Leaders forum. They did it in Costa Rica this year. It was two weeks ago.

28:14
Peter Guinane
I didn’t go, oh, it was a.

28:16
Rob Murray
Good, it was horrible, horrible weather. But it was really interesting. There was a gentleman on stage. It was a panel discussion. I can’t remember his name, but it doesn’t really matter. They talked about training and development being their core business. They happen to do landscaping, but they’re actually a training and development company, and they put a lot of effort into their people. And, and the interviewer said, well, so how do you approach training and development and working with folks? And the guy was really interesting. He said, you know, I look at it really simply like trying to teach your kid to ride a bike. You know, if you get your kid on a bike and that kid falls off and hurts themselves, do you take the bike away?

28:59
Rob Murray
Do you, do you rant and rave and yell at them for not doing a good job? Or do you dust them off and say, it’s all good, get back on the bike? What went wrong? Were there any lessons? Let’s see if we can get a little further this next time. It just stuck with me. It’s such a simple analogy, but when would you ever yell at a kid for falling off their bike? And I think a lot of people don’t necessarily give the benefit of the doubt that someone’s trying to do a good job, and they can come down, maybe, too hard on them out of the gate. I don’t know. Does that resonate with you?

29:31
Peter Guinane
Yeah, I mean, that’s a great analogy because the kid knows falling off the bike was not the objective. Right. So, you don’t have to tell them that they did something wrong. That’s not the hard part. The hard part is what I have to do differently to have the expected outcome. And that’s exactly what happens with the job site. Right. Most of your staff will know when it doesn’t turn out to meet expectations. If they’re struggling with that, then they need help to know what to do to make it right. That’s all. Yeah, because if they don’t have the attitude of I want to make this right, then they’re not good for your team at all.

30:19
Rob Murray
Yeah. I mean, that’s a different issue altogether.

30:21
Peter Guinane
Yeah. So assuming that we all want to make it right, if they’re not able to make it right and they recognize it’s not right, then you both agree that there is a solution that’s needed and that’s when you can step in and provide the coaching or the instructions to bring that to the proper conclusion.

30:41
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s cool, man. So as we’re talking about, you know, working with teams and then in this situation, you know, we kind of got to this point, well, maybe there’s a chance that someone needs to leave an organization, which is, I would say, inevitable for anybody building a company. At some point, someone needs to go be great somewhere else. Do you have any words of wisdom for folks when they’ve, they’re like, they’re banging their head against the wall? They’re like, this person isn’t fitting here, but I don’t really want to have this conversation. They’ve been here for five years, and they’ll be fine.

31:15
Rob Murray
And you know, how do you handle those situations and what can you say to people listening and how they might approach it so that it’s a, it’s not necessarily a positive outcome because someone might move on from a job, but it’s a positive human interaction. And, there’s a relationship that doesn’t get, like, hurt by the fact that someone needs to leave.

31:33
Peter Guinane
Yeah, it’s. I mean, that is challenging. We’ve had several people that have been with us for many years, and they, you know, they get, you know, personally or professionally, they stagnate, and they sort of get demoralized, and for whatever reason, they’re. Not only do they not have a growth mindset, you know, but they lose that ambition to be better tomorrow. They start to bring down the people around them. They start to, you know, bring negative energy to the team that they’re on. So, and that’s a challenge. Obviously, we will try to solve those issues. We look at the jobs they’re doing. You know, we go back to that measurement. Whether it brings you energy or it brings you down.

32:22
Peter Guinane
If there’s nothing that we can do in this company that is going to, you know, help you come to work in the morning with a positive attitude, then maybe it’s time to look at doing something else. And that’s a hard conversation when it’s with an old employee. So. But oftentimes, like with other issues, the employee sees it too. So, you know, if you’re honest with them and you ask them to be honest, you know, like, what is it that’s needed to get you back on track, to get you back engaged, to sort of be on the team? You know, and a lot of times, they’ll admit that it’s just, you know, it’s bringing them down, and they don’t know what they want to do. The reason they’re sticking around and haven’t quit is that they just don’t know what else to do. Right.

33:13
Peter Guinane
And that’s maybe where you can offer some assistance to have them, you know, pursue something else. Hopefully, it doesn’t get to the point where you have to fire somebody. Hopefully, it doesn’t get to the point where, you know, an employee thinks they deserve something that they’re. They don’t deserve it, and then you have to let them go. And then they feel like the lawyer whose ad on the back of the bus says; I’ll get you to now; I’ll get you money if you’re fired. You know, they don’t go down that road, but that’s, you know, that’s a risk. So it’s better to have a conversation with them and treat them like human beings.

33:52
Peter Guinane
The, the additional benefit of treating these staff like human beings is it communicates to the rest of your staff that you’re not heartless and you’re not going to cut people off as, you know, without. Without a feeling, without, you know, without a care for their situation. You treat them human being. That’s. That’s a good message to the rest of your staff as well.

34:16
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s cool. And we at Intrigue and also with our clients, when they have this kind of situation, we always talk about happy, healthy humans. You know, every. Every person deserves to be happy and healthy. And I think you even, you know, touched on this a couple of times. Like, if they’re not doing well, they’re typically not happy about it. And, I think, having that conversation as soon as possible. And I love what you said, too, about, you know, what needs to happen here for you to be coming to work with a smile on your face and a positive attitude. That’s a great question. And it is all about supporting somebody. You’re not coming down on anybody. You’re trying to figure out what you can do as a leader to support another person.

35:02
Rob Murray
I just think there’s a lot of magic in that. I think that’s a mindset, too. It’s not just like a talk track. That’s something. Yeah. As a leader, they. People need to understand our job is to. Well, I mean, I believe a leader’s job, especially in an organizational setting, is to ensure people are happy and healthy, whether they’re our company or someone else’s company. Yeah.

35:20
Peter Guinane
Yeah. I mean, if they’re a bad apple, they will rot the rest of the basket. Right.

35:25
Rob Murray
So it’s quick.

35:26
Peter Guinane
So, you can’t just let it fester indefinitely.

35:30
Rob Murray
Yeah.

35:31
Peter Guinane
You know, you can’t feel sorry for somebody and give them a job and just pay them because you feel bad for them, because they’re ruining it for everyone else. So you have to help them find a happy place. Place in your organization. Sure, that would be great. I have had people here at Oriole that were down and out, and, you know, we found them new roles, and they found some new energy. I have one person here, he’s. I think he’s 13 or 14 years old, and I probably, at year six, was ready to fire him, but we had these conversations, found some Other activities that actually interested him, and he’s been great ever since.

36:15
Rob Murray
So epic. Sometimes, it’s just the wrong seat. Still the right bus.

36:20
Peter Guinane
Yeah.

36:21
Rob Murray
So switching gears a little bit just because it’s timely and relevant, we got this same thing happening or this thing happening south of the border with these tariff threats now, they might not happen.

36:31
Peter Guinane
I haven’t heard anything about this.

36:33
Rob Murray
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s crazy to hear how much people are reacting to this. And, if history is any indicator of what’s going to happen, I think it’s going to be short-lived if lived at all. You know, these retractionary tariff approaches typically don’t work out. From everything I’ve researched, however, they are looming, and people are a little bit tentative and nervous. Some people are panicked and freaked. What are you guys doing? What are you saying to people? What are you hearing? How are you approaching the situation?

37:06
Peter Guinane
Yeah, I know. In Canada, there has been a buy Canadian response. That’s the initial response. Buying Canadian will reduce the risk of increasing costs if tariffs do come into play. It’s not eliminated because a lot of the Canadian manufacturers source their material from the state. So it’s going to affect us no matter how hard we try. The biggest risk for me personally as a business is materials that I’m importing for my projects, especially fixed-price projects where if I import that material after tariffs have taken effect, my costs will go up substantially, and I have to find the pathway in my contract to put that onto the customer. So either I’m going to lose money, or the customer is going to spend more money, and they’re not going to be happy.

38:03
Peter Guinane
So, there will be a lot of unhappy people in Canada if these tariffs are implemented. And if they’re around for more than a couple of weeks or a couple of months. Yeah, I agree. I think they won’t last a long time because I think it will hurt everybody, both sides of the border, and it won’t take long for that to affect change in the policy. And I think the political situation in the States is such that as long as they can get something out of it, they will claim victory and reduce the tariffs to reduce the pain and the cost. So I agree with you. I think it’s short-lived, but it’s going to, it’s going to hurt. There are going to be some costs, and you have to look at your contracts to ensure that you do not incur those costs.

38:57
Peter Guinane
And the customer, if it’s going to cost more for the customer. They might not be able to buy as much as they did before. If they have $100,000 to spend, then it might be a, you know, less of everything if the cost is higher for your product. But you definitely don’t want to be eating that cost because that’s going to, you know, landscapers in general are running on way too tight of a margin. There’s a handful of very profitable landscapers out there, and we all hear their story. We all think that’s what we want to be, and that’s a good aspiration. But to be truthful, you know, I’ve seen hundreds of companies, everybody’s running a pretty tight ship, and nobody can afford an increase of 20, 25 on their materials.

39:42
Rob Murray
No, I mean, for the most part, that’s going to put people into the red. Yeah. So then in terms of folks that did their planning, you know, maybe you could say at the right time, you know, November of last year, didn’t see these macro forces coming into play. You know, they’re betting on a stronger 20, 25. So they’re like, hey, we’re gonna do a 20 growth rate this year. After a flat year, we’re gonna go for it. Is there anything that you’re talking to your clients about, like, hey, maybe we need to revisit our expectations for the year? Or is it like, you know what, who cares? Head down, just grind it out. What are you saying to folks when it comes to their annual planning?

40:22
Peter Guinane
Well, yeah, irrespective of these tariffs, I have always preached to make sure that you have a good balance sheet first. Before you stick your neck out, you know, make sure you’ve got some protection and safety net in there. Because of everything that has happened over the last, you know, as long as I’ve been in business for almost 40 years, every recession has been a surprise to economists. And you know, every company does its quarterly shareholder call and talks about its growth expectations. And then when something happens and something happens almost every year, they’re always like, well, we didn’t anticipate this. Well, something’s going to happen. So you have to have a good balance sheet first and foremost. Because whatever happens, it could be something even internal.

41:19
Peter Guinane
You have one customer, a big customer that is a challenge to get your payments from. That can really hurt somebody who’s running a tight cash flow situation.

41:30
Rob Murray
Yeah.

41:31
Peter Guinane
Or, or your sales drop off early at the end of the year and you don’t quite make Your sales quotas so you don’t make your profit numbers, so you don’t have the cash flow over the winter season to, you know, to do a proper spring startup. Like all these things are problems if you’re not putting enough of a safety net in there. And your balance sheet is your safety net.

41:54
Rob Murray
I love that. And you know, and I know this isn’t a balance sheet, but it’s very highly related. We talked about, you know, for years with many different business owners. What’s the best approach to bulletproof your company? The common denominator is cash. If you have access to capital and access to cash, it’s pretty easy to weather a storm. But if you’re buying stuff and getting stretched thin, hoping that the year is going to be great, that can put you in a pretty risky position.

42:29
Peter Guinane
Yeah, yeah. We say cash is oxygen.

42:32
Rob Murray
Yeah. And then what? I would.

42:34
Peter Guinane
Yeah. And, and so we have a lot of our, you know, cash is tied up right now, so it’s not all liquid. But if there are storm clouds coming, I have options to free up some of that cash. You know what it means? Like, if I sell a piece of equipment, you know, I don’t necessarily need all my equipment; I’m using it. It’s good. But if my sales go down, I have ways to liquidate some of my assets quickly. I have a few things that I can get cash for quickly. So, you know, there’s a few backups. For example, I have a safety net behind my safety net.

43:14
Rob Murray
Yeah, that’s cool. Okay. Well, I appreciate, as always, Peter, having time to talk and you being on the show; one thing to leave our listeners with before we go is a resource, an author, a speaker, somebody that you found inspiration or. Aha. Moments from. Who. Who would you, who would you recommend?

43:34
Peter Guinane
Well, yeah, well, you. You quoted one. You paraphrased one of them, Jim Collins, with your seat on the bus. I do, I do love. He had a whole series of books where he talked about a lot of these programs to set up your company with the right people, the right systems, and the right approach to sales as well. Like, like if that was, you know, business 101, if that was the only set of books that you read, you.

44:01
Rob Murray
It would have more than a really strong foundation.

44:05
Peter Guinane
Yeah, yeah. So.

44:06
Rob Murray
So built to last. Good to great. Yeah, yeah. Jim Collins. I mean, that’s.

44:17
Peter Guinane
I usually give my books away. I have some on the shelf here, but I think I gave all his away.

44:22
Rob Murray
So. Because they’re that good.

44:24
Peter Guinane
Yeah, no, I read a book, and I share it.

44:26
Rob Murray
So and then if someone wants to get a hold of Peter, what’s the best way for them to do that? Through Knowledge tree or through what? How is it?

44:33
Peter Guinane
Yeah, yeah, email is easy. Peter C Biz B I Z.

44:40
Rob Murray
So Peter TC Biz.

44:43
Peter Guinane
Yeah, that’s the easiest way, but it’s, yeah. And I’m happy to share. I love talking to people. I do a lot of work with the association, where I do presentations around North America at events. Happy to share what I’ve learned. We also mentor and coach companies directly through our consulting business. So happy to talk.

45:08
Rob Murray
Awesome. Thanks, Peter. I appreciate doing this.

45:10
Peter Guinane
Thanks, Rob.