Ori Eldarov – Wall Street investment banker turned founder of OffDeal, an AI-powered M&A advisory firm – pulls back the curtain on what landscape business buyers actually want, why most operators are accidentally building unsellable companies, and what to do about it whether you plan to exit in two years or twenty. This is the exit planning conversation most landscaping entrepreneurs have never had access to – until now.
“I’m not selling a company. I’m transferring risk from myself to the new buyer. The more risk I make them take on, the less they’re going to be willing to pay me. It’s such a simple way of thinking about how your business is doing – flip it and ask: if I was buying my business today, what would give me the heebie-jeebies?”
– Ori Eldarov
Here’s what we discuss in today’s episode:
[00:01] – Introduction: Why This Conversation Matters Rob sets the stage: private equity is flooding the green industry, but the noise around buying and selling landscape businesses is full of misconceptions. Ori Eldarov – founder of OffDeal and former Wall Street investment banker – is here to cut through it.
[01:11] – Ori’s Origin Story: From Wall Street to Main Street Ori spent nearly a decade advising on billions of dollars in transactions at a top investment bank. During COVID, a quarter-life crisis led him to try to buy a small business. What he found shocked him: the caliber of advisory services available to small business owners was a fraction of what large companies received. That gap became the founding insight for OffDeal.
[03:36] – Why Small Business M&A Is Broken (And What OffDeal Does Differently) Traditional investment banks can’t make the economics work on smaller deals, so they become volume plays with lower-quality advisors. Ori’s solution: bring in AI and software engineering to deliver Wall Street-level service to Main Street business owners. OffDeal went from 3 people to nearly 20 in under two years, advising dozens of owners on both successful and unsuccessful exits.
[04:47] – How OffDeal Stumbled Into Landscaping A software company serving landscaping businesses approached OffDeal to build a custom AI tool for their clients. The tool generated massive inbound from landscape entrepreneurs wanting to understand their business value – and a dedicated landscaping M&A practice was born.
[07:47] – The Scale Reality Check: How Few Landscape Businesses Are Actually Sellable Ori shares data that reframes the entire industry:
- 700,000 landscaping companies in the United States
- Only 100,000 have more than one employee
- Only 6,500 have more than 20 employees
99% of landscape businesses are subscale. Getting past $2M in revenue requires real systems – and most operators tap out there. The message: you’re not alone, and it’s genuinely hard.
[11:08] – The Hawaii Test: The Best Litmus Test for Your Business “If you had to go to Hawaii for three months and throw your phone into the ocean, what would happen to your business?”
The best-in-class answer: it continues to grow without you. The most common answer: the wheels come off the bus. This thought experiment instantly reveals your #1 rate-limiting factor – and Ori recommends physically stepping away from the business every quarter for at least a week to surface those fractures in real time.
[13:47] – Mistake #1: Ignoring Service Mix When Building the Business The single biggest predictor of saleability is what services you offer and in what ratio. Investors have clear preferences – and if you build your business without considering them, you can accidentally cut your retirement by two-thirds. Maintenance-first businesses are king. Design/build is valuable to customers but significantly less attractive to buyers.
[14:50] – Commercial Maintenance vs. Design/Build: What Buyers Actually Pay Off the 50 largest consolidators Ori’s team interviewed:
- Some assign zero value to design/build revenue
- Others apply a 50% haircut to the multiple vs. maintenance work
- HOA commercial maintenance contracts are considered the most attractive of all
[16:45] – The Mixed Revenue Problem: How a $10M Business Becomes Unsellable Ori describes a $10M landscaping company with a 50/50 residential-commercial mix. The business is essentially unsellable to institutional buyers – because no investor wants both exposures in one company. The most likely buyer? Another local entrepreneur. Lower price, lower deal certainty, less cash at close.
[19:16] – Service Mix Is a Lever, Not a Life Sentence This isn’t a mandate to pivot overnight – it’s a directional signal. Understand what investors want, then gradually steer toward it. Operators don’t need to consult a banker for this. ChatGPT or Claude can give a serviceable directional answer on what acquired landscape companies look like.
[22:40] – What Shocked Ori After Talking to 50 Consolidators Two answers nobody expected:
- Labor documentation is non-negotiable. All 50 consolidators said every employee must be documented and have proper papers – full stop. Given the current regulatory environment, undocumented workers represent deal-killing risk. And it’s not a quick fix, especially in markets like California where documented labor is scarce.
- Snow removal above 20% of revenue kills deals. All 50 had opinions on snow removal, but the consensus: more than 20% snow revenue introduces too much variability. Know the goalposts, and set a KPI to shift away from it over time.
[26:02] – Why Private Equity Got Into Landscaping in the First Place Ori explains the “buy and build” playbook: acquire multiple smaller businesses at mid-single-digit multiples, aggregate them under one roof, then sell the combined entity for 15–25x. By the 10th acquisition, you’ve collected the best practices from every business you bought. The strategy works – until there’s no one big enough left to buy you.
[28:20] – We’re Approaching Peak Consolidation: The Window Is Finite The tell-tale signs that the consolidation cycle is late-stage:
- Minimum deal sizes have dropped to $1M books of business (previously $3–5M in profit)
- Buyers are now acquiring in Alaska and mixed-service businesses they would have rejected three years ago
- “Animal spirits” are rationalizing riskier and riskier acquisitions
Ori’s conclusion: there is a finite window to sell at peak multiples. Once the large consolidators can’t find buyers for their own portfolios, deal flow for smaller operators dries up significantly.
[31:13] – The Recessionary 2030s: Should Landscape Owners Be Worried? Rob raises ITR Economics’ widely-discussed forecast of a significant economic contraction in the early 2030s. Ori’s counterpoint: trade services – including landscaping – are among the most AI-proof industries that exist. While white-collar workers face automation risk, the hands-on trades that maintain homes and commercial properties will remain in demand. Reason for optimism, not panic.
[32:54] – Exit Planning on a 5–10 Year Timeline: Where to Start Ori’s framework for operators who know they want to sell eventually:
- Accept the psychological reality: you’ll need to do things you don’t know how to do. If you’re not okay with that, you’re not ready.
- Set an end goal (revenue, service mix, team structure) and work backwards from it.
- Answer the foundational questions: What’s your average job size? What’s your crew utilization rate? How many sales people do you need to hit the goal? Most operators can’t answer these – which reveals where to start.
[35:48] – Don’t Be the Smartest Person in the Room “If you are the smartest person in every single room as an entrepreneur, you’re doing something wrong.” Build a team around the gaps – sales, marketing, operations – and hire people who know more than you in their lane.
[37:30] – A Business Worth Selling Is a Business Worth Keeping Rob raises the insight that the best businesses to sell are the ones that don’t need to be sold. Ori confirms it: the clients who take the longest to decide to exit are the best-in-class operators. They get the most offers, the best terms, the most cash upfront, and the lowest earn-out requirements. The goal isn’t to build a sellable business – it’s to build a great business. Saleability is the byproduct.
[38:26] – The Risk Transfer Framework One of the sharpest reframes in the episode: “I’m not selling a company. I’m transferring risk from myself to the new owner. The more risk I make them take on, the less they’re going to be willing to pay me.” Use this lens to evaluate every decision you make in your business from today forward.
[38:46] – Two Thought Experiments Every Operator Should Run
- “If a stranger came to buy my business and I didn’t know them, what would I tell them?” – forces honest self-assessment
- “Which competitor would I never acquire, and why?” – instantly reveals what you’d avoid in your own business. Apply that list to yourself.
[41:45] – The Simple Heuristic: Under $10M vs. Over $10M
- Under $10M in revenue? Grow the top line. Period. A small multiple on a small number is still a small exit.
- Over $10M in revenue? Fix your margins. Going from 10% to 20% profit margin doubles your profitability and more than doubles your business value – without adding a single dollar of revenue.
[43:17] – How to Reach OffDeal & Free AI Tools Available Website: www.offdeal.io Free tools include a buyer-matching AI that shows you potential acquirers for your business from OffDeal’s database of tens of thousands of vetted buyers – no email required, no sales call. Used 50–60 times per day. You can also leave your information for a discreet consultation – even if you’re years from a potential sale.
[44:35] – Rob’s Closing Reminder: Lead Response Speed Matters Ori’s team responds to inquiries within minutes – and that’s a deliberate strategy. Rob closes with a reminder to the audience: if it takes you two days to respond to an inbound lead, the deal is already gone. Under five minutes is the standard.
Actionable Key Takeaways:
- Run the Hawaii Test – today. Ask yourself: if you disappeared for three months and threw your phone in the ocean, what would happen to your business? Whatever breaks first is your most important constraint. Then actually step away every quarter for at least a week to surface the fractures in real time.
- Know your service mix and steer it intentionally. Institutional buyers are not going to change what they want just because your business is profitable. Maintenance is king. Understand the investor preference curve now – not the week you want to sell – and make gradual moves toward a more attractive mix. You can use free AI tools to get a directional read without a banker.
- Get your labor house in order. All 50 of the largest landscaping consolidators interviewed by OffDeal said documented workers are non-negotiable. If your labor model doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, it will delay or kill a deal. Start the process now – it takes time to course correct, especially in competitive labor markets.
- Keep snow removal under 20% of revenue if you want institutional buyers. Snow is high-variability revenue. Anything above 20% raises flags across the board. Set a KPI and trend it down year over year if you’re over that threshold.
- Under $10M? Grow. Over $10M? Fix your margins. Growing from $10M to $12M at 10% margin nets you $200K in new profit. Going from 10% to 20% margin at flat revenue doubles profitability – and more than doubles the value of your business. Know which lever to pull based on where you are.
- Build the business you’d want to buy. Run both thought experiments: What would I tell a stranger buying this business? And which competitor would I never acquire – and why? Apply those answers to yourself. The things that would give you the heebie-jeebies as a buyer are the same things killing your valuation as a seller.
- The best time to start exit planning is not when you’re ready to exit. OffDeal builds relationships with founders years before a sale – because trust isn’t built overnight. Even if you’re a decade out, understanding your business’s position, service mix, and value drivers now means you’ll have options when the time comes. The operators who get the best terms are the ones who didn’t need to sell – they just chose to.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
| Resource | Type | Context |
| High Output Management by Andy Grove (Intel) | Book | Ori’s top recommendation for any business owner who wants to scale. Grove uses dead-simple analogies (like running a diner) to teach systems thinking. Ori almost didn’t read it because the title is so boring – don’t make the same mistake. |
| $100M Offers by Alex Hormozi | Book | Ori makes his entire team read it. Reads like a workbook, not a textbook. Approachable over a weekend and forces you to think about your business nonstop while reading. |
| $100M Leads by Alex Hormozi | Book | Paired with $100M Offers as required reading at OffDeal. Practical, direct, and actionable for any operator looking to grow their sales engine. |
| OffDeal.io | Website / Free AI Tools | OffDeal’s main hub. Free AI buyer-matching tool shows potential acquirers for your business from their database of tens of thousands of vetted buyers – no email required. Used 50–60 times per day. Also available: discreet consultation requests. |
| ITR Economics | Research Organization | Referenced by Rob for their forecast of significant economic contraction in the early 2030s, tied to demographic and debt service dynamics. Ori’s counterpoint: landscaping is among the most AI-proof industries. Worth checking out if you’re planning your 5–10 year horizon. |
| ChatGPT / Claude | Free AI Tools | Ori explicitly recommends using AI tools to research what acquired landscaping businesses look like – directionally useful for operators who are years from a sale and don’t need banker-level precision yet. |
Episode Transcript
Intrigue Media (00:01.677)
Hi everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the IM Landscape Growth Podcast Really pumped about the guests we have on today. Ori Eldarov. Thank you so much, Ori, for doing this. The biggest reason I’m pumped to have you on is because there’s all this talk about selling and buying businesses these days. The landscape industry has been, you know, one could say ripe for consolidation and you know, you see private equity and capital entering the industry.
but there’s all these misconceptions and different perspectives on good, bad, and the ugly. So I’m really looking forward to helping you or having you help us shed some light on all this stuff. So thank you again for doing this.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (00:41.816)
Of course, my pleasure. Thank you.
Intrigue Media (00:43.793)
So Ori started his own firm and off deal, has had over a decade in capital markets, understand how to deploy capital and growth probably in a way that’s maybe a little bit, know, unfamiliar with others in terms of like how you think about things. And this is really kind of like the whole bread and butter of the show is how people think differently. So why don’t you give us a quick little rundown of like where you’ve come from and what your core focus is today.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (01:11.022)
Yeah, happy to. So as you mentioned, I started my career in investment banking on Wall Street, where I’ve spent almost a decade and I’ve advised on billions of dollars off transactions. You know, perhaps, you know, during COVID, I started going through a bit of a quarter life crisis and thinking to myself, you know, is this what I want to do long term? You know, where the
boardrooms and these large publicly traded companies. And I got the idea of buying a small business to operate. I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I didn’t have an idea necessarily to start my own company. But I thought, well, what if I buy a company? And so I spent almost a year trying to buy a small business, couple of million bucks in profit. And perhaps naively, I thought that there was a guy like me.
sitting on the other side of the table advising these entrepreneurs on the sale of their business. And nothing could be further from the truth. It was a pretty frustrating experience. This is back in 2019 now, not much has changed. It was a pretty frustrating experience. The types of advisors that I found in the space did not come from finance backgrounds. They did not put in the same level of care.
professionalism into managing these transactions. And it makes sense. I mean, they’re much smaller. You know, the fees that you generate from them are a fraction of what you would do on a $10 billion transaction. And you have to do a lot of them. So it becomes almost like a volume play. anyway, I didn’t know any of those things at the time. All I knew is that I tried to buy a business and it was really freaking hard. And ultimately I ended up passing on a few opportunities as I couldn’t get the…
Intrigue Media (02:56.977)
Right.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (03:07.31)
the gumption to acquire a company in the middle of the global pandemic, because this is before the vaccines were even released. But that experience stuck with me. And I ended up going to business school after this and really putting my head down on what is it that I want to do? Where can I add value as a founder? Whose problems am I uniquely well positioned to solve?
Intrigue Media (03:11.569)
Sorry. Right?
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (03:36.943)
And there was a full circle moment where I realized, wait a second, there is a gap in the market for investment making services, M &A advisory services for smaller businesses. And I’ve personally lived through that as a buyer. And I’ve also been the advisor for sellers. So I know what kind of experience that is possible for people to get. But always follow the money and become very clear that you just can’t make the math work.
Intrigue Media (03:48.805)
Right.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (04:06.382)
on these smaller deals if you want to attract the same kind of caliber of talent from these top New York firms. And that’s where I realized that the only solution to solve that tension was bringing in technology. And so I partnered with a very unusual person for an investment bank. I partnered with a software engineer who was a second time an entrepreneur. worked at Meta at Facebook for many years. And we put our heads together to start.
a brand new investment bank from scratch called Off Deal. We call ourselves an AI powered investment bank, but really it is an investment bank that happens to use a lot of AI to deliver incredible outcomes to the business owners that we work with. And so, like you said, we started about two years ago. If we were having this conversation on May 4th, 2025, the company would have been only three people. Today is almost 20 people.
Intrigue Media (05:00.655)
Right?
Amazing.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (05:03.968)
and is going to end up at 40. And we’ve advised dozens of business owners on successful exits. We’ve also advised many on unsuccessful exits. we can talk about both sides of the story. And before I pass it back off to you, we stumbled into landscaping somewhat by accident. We partnered with a company that provides software solutions for landscaping companies end of last year.
They came to us and they said, Hey, we help with expense management, to a of landscaping companies. oftentimes they want to know what can they do to increase the value of their, of their, business, what is their business worth today, et cetera. And so we, lent our engineering muscle and build a custom AI tool for that company. And after we released it, we started getting just tremendous inbound from landscaping entrepreneurs.
who were saying, I saw your tool here. I want to learn more. I want to speak to a banker, et cetera, et cetera. And one thing led to another. And now we have a dedicated practice for working with landscaping companies. So somewhat fortuitous how we ended up stumbling into it. But we love the sector very much. And so was very excited when he reached out for me to join this program.
Intrigue Media (06:25.473)
Awesome. And likewise, because there’s so much around this. You know, we hear things from like
I, you know, a company running a $600,000 a year revenue business being like, want to sell my business for $2 million. Okay. Then we hear people that are, you know, running say $10 million companies, but they’re still massively integral to the day-to-day operations wanting to sell their business for $20 million. Then we hear people saying things like private equity is bad. Then we hear things like private equity is the best. The whole goal is to sell. So there’s all these different comp, there’s all these different commentary.
around exit, know, succession, whatever, it’s family and generational, if it’s private equity, if it’s a consolidation, there’s just all these things. So it’s like, what is really the way to move forward and think about this?
And so, you know, the main conversation for this show is usually like, what’s the primary growth constraint holding entrepreneurs back in the green industry? But I think for the sake of this conversation, we can just say, what are the biggest mistakes people have in their heads in terms of the way they think about exit? And like, what do you see when you’re talking to people about the most common issues or symptoms that people have to deal with before they can actually, you know, get it into a position for a sale?
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (07:47.149)
Yeah. mean, you know, that, that question alone, you know, you can have a five hour conversation on before, before, before, we get into the specifics. wanted to set the frame for the founders that are listening to this program. So, there are about 700,000 landscaping companies in the United States. That is a mind boggling number.
Intrigue Media (07:53.125)
We got 35 minutes. Let’s do this, Ori.
Intrigue Media (08:15.942)
Yeah.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (08:16.142)
Okay. And it’s stated very frequently, you know, in various places where people try to sell you stuff. But we really dug into the data and we wanted to understand, well, how many companies are there really that could be bought today of that 700,000? So turns out off the 700,000, and I’m round numbers, only about 100,000 have more than one employee.
So that means that there are 600,000 people out there, and I say this with utmost respect, it’s a truck in a truck type operation. They’re working by themselves in their local community, providing great customer service, I’m sure, but that is a job, right? That is not a business. But then if you expand this and you say, okay, well, how many companies employ more than 20?
employees. The number drops to six and a half thousand. So we started at seven hundred thousand companies. Right. And only six and a half thousand of them have more than 20 employees. And so the question that you asked me. Yeah. And so the question that you asked me earlier, you know, what’s holding people back? I want to start by saying that you’re not alone. Right. As a founder who’s struggling to
Intrigue Media (09:30.171)
So it’s 1%, 1%, 1%.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (09:43.977)
scale their business. Actually, vast majority, 99 % of companies in the United States, I’m sure it’s similar for Canada, are subscale, right? So you are like most people and there’s no need to beat yourself up over it because it’s really freaking hard to scale the company. Most people tap out at a million dollars, or call it maybe two, but to get
beyond $2 million in sales, you have to have systems in place, right? You just cannot physically, as a founder, as a CEO, manage enough people all by yourself and wear 12 different hats if you wanna get to 10 million, 20 million, 30 million.
Intrigue Media (10:34.212)
Yeah, we talked about it. If you grind yourself to high blood pressure and heart attacks, you might be able to pull off three million for a couple of years.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (10:41.038)
So the size of the company is one of the best predictors on how much of a system it is, right? Because it’s physically impossible to be past 10 million or $20 million in sales without it being a proper business with all the infrastructure and all these things. But there is another question that I like to ask people early on in the conversation. And I say, hey, if you…
Intrigue Media (10:56.88)
with structure yet.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (11:08.802)
had to go to Hawaii for a three month vacation and you threw your phone into the ocean, what would happen to your business? The best in class answer is my business continues to grow without me. That’s really hard. The second best is that my business is gonna survive. It’s not gonna go to zero. The most common answer is, my gosh, the wheels are gonna come off the bus, right? There’s gonna be a car crash.
And that’s the best litmus test, right? How long can you step away from the business? And I would start there. It’s actually the best possible test because it will quickly tell you what is the most important rate limiting factor in your business. For example, maybe you are the only salesperson. And so the second you step away for multiple days, there’s no one to feel the phone. Right. That could absolutely be it. And that’s the easiest thing to solve, right?
Intrigue Media (11:55.663)
and close the deals.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (12:02.698)
Or maybe you disappear for a week and people don’t know how to price jobs and now we’re giving out bids that are too low or too high, et cetera. Okay, so then we need pricing discipline and we need some sort of infrastructure for that. And so I highly recommend entrepreneurs forcing themselves to physically step away from the business every quarter for at least a week to identify all these fractures.
Intrigue Media (12:30.972)
Right.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (12:31.662)
The benefit is also you get to reset and come back with a fresh head. That helps. But that’s the first thing. And by the way, I prescribe the same medicine I take. In my business, every couple of weeks, I take a step back and I look at what is the biggest rate limit? What’s stopping me today from being 10 times bigger? It could be not enough leads. It could be I’m not converting.
Intrigue Media (12:36.028)
which also helps in a big way way.
Yeah
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (12:59.438)
enough, know, et cetera, et cetera. And then you can say, you can ask follow up why, why, why, and you quickly figure out exactly where the most actionable problem sits today.
Intrigue Media (13:10.8)
Right. So then people try this litmus test, which I think is just a beautiful thing because it’s like sometimes tough to see the forest through the trees. And if you actually did just take three weeks away, you know, whether you thought you could or not, just to see what happens would be pretty evident to your point. So think that’s a pretty cool, mean, even as a thought experience, but a real experience would actually be pretty insightful. So then that sets the around, hey, the business isn’t a job.
A business is an autonomous entity that runs, exists and grows without you involved. So that frame based on the question I said before about what are the biggest mistakes people making in terms of way they think about sale. Let’s dive into that then.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (13:43.533)
Yeah.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (13:47.842)
Yes.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (13:58.487)
Yeah, I think it all starts with the service mix. What is it that you do? And for better or for worse, there are specific archetypes of a business that investors are looking for that will attract the most demand and the highest possible price.
No one on this show, you, me, is going to convince the market otherwise. And Lord knows the entrepreneurs themselves are not going to convince the investors otherwise. And so understanding what is the end state, whether it is five, 10, 20 years from now, is very important. Because if you make the wrong investments, the wrong decisions today and continue on with them, it’ll be very hard to course correct.
Intrigue Media (14:26.354)
Right.
They can die trying, but it’s not gonna happen.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (14:50.286)
And let me give you a concrete example. in the landscaping world, and let me make it even more specific for this example. In the commercial landscaping world, maintenance is key. It’s king. People prefer maintenance type businesses as opposed to install design build. for example, and you know, no business is truly unsellable, right? There’s always going to be some buyer for some business.
Intrigue Media (14:53.052)
Yeah, perfect.
Intrigue Media (15:09.33)
It’s like five year annuities, right?
Intrigue Media (15:19.804)
Sure.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (15:20.066)
But maintenance is absolutely king. And within that, working with HOAs, cetera, is considered the most attractive. And so imagine an operator, an entrepreneur, who doesn’t know or doesn’t care about what it is that investors are looking for. And your Google ads are starting to hit pretty well with some very custom design build work. And you decide to keep taking it to keep your guys busy.
Right. And two years go by and now most of your revenue comes from design build work that is totally dependent on how much discretionary income people have, how much are they willing to spend this year versus deferring it to next year. Every year, January 1st, the revenue clock starts at zero. Right. You’ve made your business a lot more risky and volatile in just two years of taking the jobs.
that near term thinking, perhaps that you shouldn’t be taking. But now extrapolated for further, you did this for another seven years, you rolled ups and downs of the real estate market. Now you’re tired, you’re 68 and you want to retire. There will be a very challenging business to sell and it will be a very challenging business to course correct towards maintenance work. Why? Because you have the last decade of operations optimized for the service that is certainly valuable to a bunch of customers of yours.
Intrigue Media (16:18.632)
Yep.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (16:45.688)
but it’s just not as valuable to the investors. And so now, through some pretty simple but wrong decisions, you potentially have haircut your retirement by two thirds or in some cases made the business unsellable. And we’ve talked, we actually talked to 50 of the biggest consolidators in the country. We went down the list and we set up a call with each of every one of them and we spoke to them.
Intrigue Media (16:49.885)
Great.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (17:13.838)
for 30 minutes, 60 minutes at a time, sometimes with multiple follow-up calls. We wanted to really understand what is it that they are looking for. Right? Hear it from the horse’s mouth. And they said, tell me.
Intrigue Media (17:23.731)
Can I take a guess?
Can I take a guess? Risk-free cash flow.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (17:31.011)
Yeah. High margin recurring. Yeah, of course. But it was pretty interesting. There are some people that were so extreme, they said, we’re gonna just assign zero value to any design build work that you do. Some people said we’re gonna give a 50 % haircut to whatever multiple we ascribe to the maintenance work. So if we think the maintenance business is worth eight times, we’re gonna go four times on the design build work, right? Anyway, bringing it all home.
Intrigue Media (17:45.619)
Crazy.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (17:59.553)
It all starts with a service mix. And that’s okay if you’re 10 years out and your service mix is not where you want it to be. But if you want to sell the business at some point in time for any serious amount of money, whether it is to fund your retirement, your family, your children, you got to back solve from where the investor activity is happening and start navigating towards that mix.
Intrigue Media (18:18.289)
Well, I think it’s really interesting perspective too, if you can build, and this is for anybody in any industry, if you can build a, you know, a client diverse revenue stream of low risk, predictable cashflow, that’s a good business. However you describe what the operations are, you know, that doesn’t matter.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (18:26.659)
Yes.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (18:40.588)
Yes.
Intrigue Media (18:46.371)
In this case, it just tends to be this type of commercial maintenance that has less risk and predictability associated to it. And so I think it’s important too to acknowledge that that just happens to be one of the models of a landscape business. It doesn’t mean that every landscape entrepreneur has to go do that, which is not what you’re saying by any stretch.
But I do think that there are a bunch of people that are like hearing this time and time again. It’s like commercial maintenance, commercial maintenance, commercial maintenance.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (19:16.556)
Well, that’s just an example. There’s also residential work that is attractive. But for example, I spoke to a business two weeks ago. They grew without a plan to $10 million in sales, pretty respectable size business now. And there are 50-50 residential commercial work. And there’s various reasons that are beyond the scope of this conversation of why they ended up where they ended up, but they never thought about the mix. And their business is flat out unsellable today.
Intrigue Media (19:20.654)
Mm.
Intrigue Media (19:35.389)
Great.
Intrigue Media (19:45.992)
Right.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (19:46.957)
Because there are no investors that are looking for both residential and commercial exposure in one business. And so imagine grinding to a $10 million revenue business that’s making a couple of million bucks in profit, and your best chance of selling it is to another unassuming entrepreneur in the local area. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Intrigue Media (19:55.165)
bright.
Intrigue Media (20:10.801)
Right, Ori in 2019.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (20:15.406)
And by the way, in those cases, do become the most likely buyers. The prices become much lower. The deal certainty becomes much lower, et cetera. So that’s the number one thing by far. But people start defending to me why they provide the services that they do and they go, but it’s great business. And I was like, no, no, I’m not arguing that it’s great or bad business. All I’m saying is that in whatever point in time you decide to sell your business and partner with someone.
Intrigue Media (20:32.147)
Of they do.
Intrigue Media (20:37.425)
No.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (20:45.89)
They will not find your business attractive. They will find it very difficult to wrap their head around.
Intrigue Media (20:51.463)
Well, it’s interesting on the flip side, like we had this, there’s a company out of Minnesota. I mean, I mean, maybe I gave it away, but they started off in landscape. Then they, and they were doing sod installation. And then they realized that their sod installation was actually a really good business. So they’re doing residential sod installation. And then they started doing some commercial stuff and then they’re like, wow, that’s even better business. And they started just doing commercial sod installation. And now they’re, you know, whatever eight figure plus commercial sod installation business. It’s a good business.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (21:20.876)
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you catch that lightning in the bottle and you get a product market fit and you got to just keep doubling out.
Intrigue Media (21:21.415)
That’s really good business.
Intrigue Media (21:28.563)
Yeah, and they did, and they just got, and they started to, they realized where they were being distracted and started being more focused and more focused and more focused. And so they didn’t necessarily have the end in mind, but I think that’s a really cool perspective that you’re bringing to the table right now is like, service mix is a big lever in terms of end in mind.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (21:45.975)
It’s one of the biggest. It’s one of the biggest. And the cool thing is you don’t even need to speak to someone like me to at a high level figure out what the right mix is. can go on ChadGBT or Claude or whatever and just ask that question. It’s not going to be as precise because it doesn’t have access to the dozens and dozens of conversations that someone like me had. But you’re not looking, unless you’re looking to sell right this moment, if you’re 10 years out, you just need to directionally know.
Right? And, you know, that will be a great resource to at least take a look. What is the shape of the businesses that got acquired look like? Right? Like it’s just very simple. Go on the website.
Intrigue Media (22:20.946)
Yeah.
And then you can make a choice. You don’t necessarily have to do it, but then at least you know what it looks like. So when you were talking to all these folks that were consolidating the industry over the last years, what was something they said to you that was shocking? Something that kind of surprised you?
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (22:27.02)
No? That’s right.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (22:40.654)
So I think the thing that was just not on my bingo card in terms of like number one risk to a deal is labor model and specifically how strict are you with hiring only documented workers? And you know, perhaps it’s the current administration that’s making people a little bit more nervous, but out of the 50 conversations, all 50 said that this is a non-negotiable for them.
Intrigue Media (23:08.54)
Yeah.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (23:09.806)
that everyone has to be documented and have to have proper papers. look, I’m not going to get into the political debate of that policy, but it’s making people pass on otherwise very good investment opportunities just because they don’t want to have the risk of like of ice showing up at their company two months from now. this is another thing that it’s really hard to course correct, because if you’re in a market like California,
Intrigue Media (23:24.603)
And that’s it, risk.
Intrigue Media (23:30.855)
Sure.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (23:40.399)
It’s really hard to get good workers for the wages that you can afford that have all the proper papers. And it’s not a switch overnight. It’s not like, oh, I’m just going to post the job post on Indeed. I’m going to interview a bunch of people and there I am. So it takes time. You’re going to have some turnover, et cetera, et cetera. And so that will meaningfully delay the sale of your business if you’re not playing by the book in that particular.
Intrigue Media (23:48.252)
Yeah.
Intrigue Media (24:10.568)
aspect of the business. Yeah.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (24:10.67)
So that was pretty interesting. The other one that was interesting is how controversial snow removal is. So you talk to 50 people and you’re going to hear 50 opinions. my way it shakes out for me is in some geographies, snow is just impossible to avoid. You have to do snow. And it also allows to keep your guys busy.
Intrigue Media (24:19.218)
Yeah.
Intrigue Media (24:24.04)
Wait.
Intrigue Media (24:39.508)
Mm-hmm.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (24:39.726)
during the winter months. But with how much variability there is year to year in the snowpack, having anything more than 20 % of your revenue come from snow removal will make your business very hard to sell to an investor. And so again, it keeps coming back to revenue mix. Know what the rough
goalposts are and over time shift yourself towards that. It’s very hard to massively pivot the business and frankly very risky. So you don’t want to make any drastic decisions, right? But if you’re too overweight on snow, I would definitely set a KPI for myself year over year.
Intrigue Media (25:22.738)
That’s super helpful though and like remarkably specific. So here’s a thought maybe you can shed some light on. Like, you know, 10 years ago, consolidation started to happen in the industry. You know, it’s been prevalent maybe in the last five years more so than ever before. But does the risk profile of landscape businesses
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (25:25.933)
Yeah.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (25:31.725)
Yeah.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (25:36.45)
Yes.
Intrigue Media (25:50.145)
or the deal profile that private investments or private equity are looking for, does it change over time or is it always like try, tested and true, risk-free cashflow always wins?
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (26:02.754)
So maybe we can take a step back and try to answer the question, why do people buy these businesses in the first place? Why is a large private equity firm with billions of dollars is suddenly interested in a $10 million revenue business or $5 million revenue business? Why is that?
And this strategy has been around for quite some time and it gained, like you said, a lot of popularity over the last five, maybe 10 years. It’s called a buy and build strategy. So sparing the perhaps unnecessary complexity, right, from this, you can buy a bunch of businesses that generate a couple of million bucks in profit for mid single digit multiples. And then we have
a lot of those businesses together, you can sell them for 15, 20, 25 times, right? And so by consolidating, by aggregating a lot of these businesses under one roof, you can create a ton of value. And so that’s been the playbook. And we’ve seen this play out in residential plumbing and HVAC to a T, it will be hard to find a business that has not heard from a private equity group at least a few times. Okay, so.
The name of the game is buy smaller businesses, roll them up into a bigger business, and then you sell that bigger business at a profit in the future. Hopefully you’ll also gain some operational expertise. By the time you buy your 10th landscaping business, you’ve learned from the first nine, maybe one of them was really good at marketing and the other one was really good at actually service execution. And the third one was very good at onboarding. So by the time 10th business you buy, you’ve…
you’ve uncovered 10 different superpowers, right, to some extent. And so the 11th and 15th and 20th become even more profitable and performant, okay? So, but who’s buying those companies? Right, so we were talking about Richard Sberber, right? So he sold his company for a billion dollars or around there. And so there needs to be a buyer that can afford a billion dollar company for a billion dollar company to afford a $50 million company and for a $50 million company to afford a $5 million company, right?
Intrigue Media (28:03.976)
Right.
Intrigue Media (28:19.742)
Right, right.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (28:20.512)
It’s a factory line. And so when you say about the risk, my question is looking at how many private equity backed consolidators of massive scale now exists in the space, who’s going to be holding the bag last? Right? And so those portfolio companies will need to be sold to a larger buyer. And I’m not convinced that there is enough capacity to absorb all those businesses.
And so bringing it back to the little guy, I think there is a finite window to catch the cycle, to sell at a time when the multiples are at all time high. And once those bigger guys start having issues exiting themselves.
Intrigue Media (29:04.948)
This is gonna dry up the deal flow.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (29:06.51)
That’s right. That’s right. So yes, we are nearing peak risk territory now just because of how much consolidation happened. And you can also see it in so many different ways. First of all, what’s the minimum deal size? People will look at books of businesses as small as a million dollars now. That is unheard of. You used to buy businesses that are minimum maybe $3 or $5 million in profit.
Intrigue Media (29:31.742)
profit, not revenue, yeah, I was gonna say, we have to clarify for the audience, like this is…
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (29:34.575)
Yeah. And now we’re looking at a million dollar revenue book of business and people will snap that up. You know, back in the day, would only see deals in the Sunbelt, right? And now people are buying landscaping companies in Alaska, right? I mean, it’s truly, you know, the fact that they’re dropping their guard, right? That they’re willing to buy riskier and riskier businesses. If you look at the last like 10 or 15 landscaping companies that got acquired,
Intrigue Media (29:39.262)
Profit though, millionaire profit.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (30:04.366)
like in the last couple of months, you will see that a bunch of them do heartscaping and stonemasonry and things like that. And they design pools. Again, three years ago, nobody would want that business, right? Somehow people are saying, you know, but it’s in the, in the town where I already have another operation or it’s in the same county and I really need to grow my exposure in, in Florida and yada, yada, yada. They’re rationalizing it. So, so there’s a bit of animal spirits right now in the market.
Intrigue Media (30:15.914)
Right.
Intrigue Media (30:26.697)
So they’re rationalizing taking on more risk.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (30:33.378)
Right? But I don’t think that’s going to last based on what I’m seeing of the upper, upper end of the market where those larger consolidators themselves will need to be sold and monetized at some
Intrigue Media (30:46.643)
Yeah, well, it makes sense though, because if they can’t get a deal done, then their appetite to keep consolidating goes lower. And then they probably need to create more efficiency within the current business unit to be able to maximize the purchase that they’re going to try to create or the sale they’re going to try to create. That’s really interesting. then.
I know you’re not a fortune teller, but you’re talking about, it seems like implying that we’re at the end of a cycle. And ITR economics, you’re familiar with these guys? They have a relationship with the National Association of Landscape Professionals. They do like a national report. They have this big thing about the recessionary 2030s. Have you caught wind of this at all?
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (31:13.814)
Mid to late, yeah. Mid to late.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (31:30.978)
I mean, I hear about people asking about the recession risks all the time. That’s what you’re referring to, but.
Intrigue Media (31:37.332)
Well, specifically these ITR folks have like a depression happening, or beginning in the beginning of 2030. A lot of it’s demographically controlled with like the…
inflationary risk of the debt in like the debt service coverage that’s required for the country and the population and the demand on transfer payments and health care and like just the fact that there isn’t a population to be able to support it. So the working population is smaller than like what we consider like the old and sick population. And so there’s just all this talk about, you know, 2030, early 2030s being like really, really, really tough. And so if like what you’re saying kind of does
kind of lend itself to that type of idea of like being at the end of a cycle where cash is out there to buy and people seeing more risk in the marketplace and wanting to maybe hold off. Assuming all that to be true at some level, at least your comments and you know, mine are just some other persons at ITR Economics, you can check them out if you’re listening to this.
What would be an approach if I’m saying, if I’m thinking to myself, well, I want to be exiting in the next five to 10 years and I’m at the end of a buy cycle going into a potential soft economy or economic cycle. How can I view that in a way to make it so that I’m not, you know, doing this all for nothing.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (32:54.668)
Yeah, great question. also perhaps by saying that just like there’s a lot of doom and gloom scenarios that people are saying, the other counterpoint to that is that trade services like landscaping is AI proof. at a time where white collar workers are going to be losing jobs left, right, and center, the trades that keep our homes and all these things in good condition actually are the ones that are the most AI proof.
Intrigue Media (33:10.268)
yeah yeah yeah yeah
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (33:22.476)
jobs out there. So just to give a little bit dose of optimism on what’s going on. But look, if you’re serious about selling your business on a five to 10 year timeline, and I would say like 10 years is less stressful than five, just you have more time to land the plane. The first thing is psychological. You got to accept the fact that you’ll be uncomfortable for the next five years. And you’re going to have to do things that you do not how to do.
that you’ve never done before. Why? Because doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the first sign of insanity. And so if you know, okay, five years from now, the clock starts in five years, I want to sell my business. The first thing you do is I say, I look in the mirror and I say, am I comfortable doing things that I don’t know how to do? Asking for help, hiring experts, et cetera. And the answer needs to be yes. If it’s not a yes, you’re doomed at the start.
Okay. And so you make a roadmap and you say, okay, well, I want to be at this size and I need to have this service mix. Then you say, okay, well, what needs to happen? What needs to be true for me to get to that size? And I’m going to use a random number. Let’s say you want to get to $10 million in sales, right? And you’re a three. The question then becomes, okay, to get to 10 million, how much work do I need to sell? Right? At an average price of
Intrigue Media (34:41.046)
Okay.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (34:50.062)
10,000 or 20,000, whatever the number is, right? I need to sell this many, okay? How many techs do I need to actually deliver that service, right? You can back into that. And how many salespeople do I need to actually sell that product, right? And by the way, you know, I’m spending this much on Google ads right now. How much do I need to increase my Google ads? So you start working backwards from the goal.
And here’s the thing, I would guarantee you 85 % of listeners will not be able to answer those questions because they don’t know off the top of their head what is the average dollar amount per job sold. They don’t know what is my utilization rate of existing workers or how much. There could be plenty of spare capacity or they could be all overworked to death and actually you need to hire more just to keep the existing size, right?
Intrigue Media (35:37.407)
or equipment.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (35:48.079)
But the idea is, and this is very important, is how to think in systems. And so you set an end goal and you work backwards from it. And it might mean, gosh, I don’t know how to do sales or I’m not good at sales. I need to hire an expert. And at some point, you don’t want to be the smartest person in the room. If you are the smartest person in the room in every single room, as an entrepreneur, you’re doing something wrong.
Intrigue Media (36:14.43)
Yeah, you’re holding all the strings together and trying to make it so that it doesn’t all fall apart.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (36:18.444)
Just like someone who’s done landscaping for 10, 15 years, there is a person out there who’s done marketing for 10, 15 years. Who might that be?
Intrigue Media (36:25.238)
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Well, so first of all, we gotta do another episode, because we’re coming up to time. And I think there’s just so much that you’ve touched on. I got a bunch of notes here that I want to come back to, but there was one that I wanted you to maybe just shed some light on for some folks. Because I think there’s this romance of the sale.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (36:47.917)
Yeah.
Intrigue Media (36:48.118)
It’s like, and then we, we’ve been looking at it and talking to businesses ourselves and learning about this thing and being part of like, you know, entrepreneur organization and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we just keep seeing the same type of thing pop up and I’d love to get your take on it. It’s like a business worth selling is typically a business worth keeping. The fact that you’ve built value in a business makes it generate a bunch of cash without you. And so like,
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (37:08.578)
Yes.
Intrigue Media (37:17.398)
It’s like building a business for the sake of selling doesn’t mean you have to. It’s almost like you’re building the scaffolding around the business to be worth keeping. And I’m just curious what your take is on that idea.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (37:30.225)
Well, I 100 % agree with that. the funniest is if you look at my sales funnel for my business, the businesses that take the longest to decide to sell are the ones that are best in class. Why? Because they don’t need to sell. And that’s the best position to be in. When you don’t need to sell, but you can if you want to, that’s leverage. Those are the businesses that will get the most offers. Those are the businesses that will sell the best terms. Those are the businesses where
Intrigue Media (37:44.544)
Right.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (37:57.711)
The owners are going to walk away with maximum cash upfront and the lowest amount of earn out and, and, and, right. I think the way folks need to think about a sale of a business is that I’m not selling a company, but I’m transferring risk from myself to the new owner. And the more risk I make them take on upon themselves.
Intrigue Media (38:04.331)
Yeah.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (38:26.764)
the less they’re gonna be willing to pay me. And it’s such a simple way of thinking about how your business is doing. You can even flip it and say, okay, well, what if I was buying my business? What would give me the heebie-jeebies? Seriously, right?
Intrigue Media (38:30.164)
Well said. Well said.
Intrigue Media (38:40.629)
Ha!
Yeah, yeah, like if your friend came to you and said they want to buy your business and you didn’t know it, what would you say to them as advice?
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (38:46.478)
Yep, yep. Here’s another one, here’s another one. As you can see, I’m big on thought experiments. Which of my competitors would I love to acquire and which of my competitors would I never acquire? And it will be very easy to figure out why you’re drawn to one business and not the other. Like, oh, they have constant turnover in their employee base or their Google reviews suck or whatever. Within five seconds, you’ll be able to understand
Intrigue Media (38:59.498)
Mm-hmm.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (39:16.514)
why you personally would not wanna buy someone else’s business. Then apply that to yourself.
Intrigue Media (39:20.286)
Love that. Yeah, it’s beautiful. And I think taking the minute, even if you’re driving in your car truck, whatever, to go through these thoughts, while you’re listening to this podcast, just press pause and listen and put yourself through the thought, I think is really cool. I love how accessible you make that thought experiment. That’s really cool for folks. So, a couple quick questions before we let you go.
a book resource, author, speaker that you found inspirational that you thought you should share with the audience, what would be one that comes to mind.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (39:50.575)
I think a very approachable book for anyone who wants to really take their business to the next level and scale it is High Output Management by Andy Grove. It’s the founder of Intel, is obviously one of the great American companies. But he starts off the book by explaining how complicated it actually is to get a hot coffee.
a crisp toast and cooked eggs served to every single patron of a diner at the same time, right? Within 10 minutes of sitting down. And so he uses a lot of very accessible, very easy to understand analogies that as a business owner, you just start racing through your mind like, my gosh, you know, like he’s totally right. And it just, you know, the title of the book is very, very boring. But the, I almost didn’t read it because of it.
Intrigue Media (40:45.43)
Yeah.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (40:49.326)
But the contents were just fabulous and they’re so great to learn how to think about how to think in systems and how to scale businesses. The other one is anything by Alex Hormozi. He’s an investor in my business, but I make everyone on my team read all of his books, specifically $100 million offers and $100 million sales. Extremely, extremely approachable.
Intrigue Media (41:04.053)
Yeah, straight up.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (41:19.33)
You can read that over a weekend. And again, it’s something that you’re going to be reading this and thinking about your business nonstop. It doesn’t feel like a textbook. It’s a workbook. Yeah, I agree.
Intrigue Media (41:26.647)
No, it’s almost like a workbook. Like having it on your desk and keeping it referenceable and workable. mean, yeah, Hormozzi’s done a lot in terms of consolidating a lot of the best ideas into what I would consider very consumable and accessible methods. Yeah, he’s awesome.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (41:45.007)
And for the audience to think in a very simple heuristic, if you’re under $10 million of sales, the number one priority should be to grow sales. If you are over $10 million in sales, number one priority is to fix your margins. If you’re below 10 million bucks, you’re going to sell your business at a meaningfully lower multiple. You’re going to have meaningfully less potential buyers. It’s still sellable, but the biggest…
change or biggest impact on the value of your asset. Again, I’m mentioning, I’m referring to your business as an asset, right? It is to grow the top line. On the other side, if you are already at 10 million or more, and let’s say you have a 10 % profit margin, if you grind your way from 10 million in sales to 12 million in sales, right? Which is not easy. That’s only an additional $200,000 in profit, right? But
Intrigue Media (42:41.675)
Right.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (42:42.83)
If you fix your sales or fix your operations and you go from 10 % profit margin to 20 % profit margin, you doubled the profitability of your business and more than doubled the value of your business while keeping the overall sales the same. that’s a pretty simple, again, an oversimplification perhaps, but that’s how I would think about it. If under 10 million, grow, grow, grow. If over 10 million, optimize, optimize, optimize.
Intrigue Media (43:01.363)
No, it’s perfect though, it’s perfect.
Intrigue Media (43:09.611)
Love that man. If someone wanted to reach out to you to talk about the sale or the purchase of a landscape business, how would they go about doing that?
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (43:17.998)
So the best place is probably to go on our website. It’s www.offdeal.io and we have some pretty interesting resources available to people online. Even if they don’t necessarily want to speak to a human, they can use a handful of our free AI tools. For example, one of them that has been used probably at least 50 to 60 times a day by people.
it is something that shows you potential buyers for your business without. Yeah. so that’s pretty fun. So it uses our database of tens of thousands of buyers that we’ve spoken with and, uses AI matching to show you, a preview of potential suitors for your business. And it costs nothing. You don’t have to leave your phone number or email. So highly encourage you to check it out. And of course, you can leave your information on our site and one of our reps will.
Intrigue Media (43:48.021)
Yeah, I filled it out at the beginning of the call.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (44:13.198)
reach out to you within a couple of minutes and we’re happy to provide a discreet consultation. Again, even if you’re years away from selling, we like to these relationships well before in advance. We’re ultimately in a business of trust and you don’t build trust overnight. So no matter what your timeline is, we’re happy to speak.
Intrigue Media (44:35.511)
Okay, love it. First of all, there’s a couple things there. Thank you for doing this. Let’s do another one. But I don’t know if you guys all heard what Ori just said there is if you fill out the information, somebody from their company will get back to you within minutes.
Trust isn’t built overnight, but trust starts in minutes. And I’m saying that to everybody right now because we’re seeing a massive lead response issue across the industry where people are telling us that it takes them two days to get back to a lead and the deal is gone before it even started. So just using this as a quick reminder to everybody to get back to your leads under five minutes is ideal or you’re the best. Thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it. All right. Cheers guys.
Ori Eldarov (OffDeal) (45:13.622)
Of course, thank you so much for having me.