John Dalton (Dalton Marketing Group): Why Most Landscaping Brands Stay Invisible

speaker-0 (00:00.152)
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the I am landscape growth podcast. I don’t know, selfishly excited about this, this episode. I’ve John, John Dalton as a guest today. John, thank you so much for doing this. John’s got a really cool perspective and a lot of experience working with a bunch of amazing landscape entrepreneurs. So that’s kind of why I am. And has this perspective on brand and positioning that I think is lost on a lot of folks. So I’m really pumped to kind of bring it to the foreground. Currently head of Dalton marketing group.

speaker-1 (00:11.054)
Absolutely. Happy to be here.

speaker-0 (00:30.016)
a ton of experience marketing, helping a bunch of landscape entrepreneurs, but why don’t you just give us a quick little rundown of like what you’ve been up to the last five, six years and kind of what your core focus is today. Give the audience some perspective and then we’ll jump into the meat and potatoes.

speaker-1 (00:45.24)
Sure, absolutely. Again, thanks for having me on the show, Rob. I’m really happy to be here. Yeah, just a little bit about me, you know, in the last five years, my journey in marketing started like 30 years ago, but spent a long time as an entrepreneur myself, running some businesses, some successfully, some not so successful, sold one, and found my way into the landscape industry about four years ago through an old colleague I used to work with. I really fell in love with the industry, you know, I really enjoy working with landscapers.

because of their grip, their ability to check the ego with the door and ask for help. know, a lot of folks I’ve worked with, whether that be like lawyers or doctors, aren’t necessarily willing to admit when they don’t know things or make mistakes. It makes it really difficult to work with people like that. So I really have enjoyed being part of the industry and helping people understand what marketing is, what brand means, and how to kind of pull that all together into a strategy or a framework that can

help them, you know, grow their business and reach their goals. So for the last year or so, I’ve been kind of tied into the leanscaper community. If, your audience is familiar with that, I’m sure you’ve talked about it more than once, but I I’m one of their certified advisors and I work with a lot of the leanscaper clients specifically to help them bring their brand kind of into the 21st century and do things in a much more strategic way that helps them, helps them move forward.

speaker-0 (02:14.366)
Awesome. Yeah, it was cool to hear the stories you presented in Scottsdale and how the impact you’ve had on helping people legitimately stand out from a crowd of generic nothing. And I think this is something like a lot of people come to us and they’re like, we want you to do social media for us. And we’re like, okay, I get it. You use social media, therefore you want to do it. Maybe you can just tell me a little bit more about what makes you different and how…

people would know that difference and why someone would pick you based on the kind of customer that you want to work with. And they’re like, like,

speaker-1 (02:47.298)
Yeah, I get a lot of that. You know, I think it’s not uncommon for landscapers. Marketing kind of is at the bottom of the priority list, right? You’ve got most of them start off pushing the mower, you know, in high school or whatever. So they’re more concerned about getting, taking care of their customers, taking care of their equipment, maybe hiring people. And marketing is just not a skill that they’ve ever learned or was ever really at the forefront of what they do. So for most of them, it becomes just a series of unrelated tactics, right? You’re going to try this, they’re going to try that.

They hear their friend talk about social media, so that’s why they reach out to you and say, hey, could you do social media for me? But just like anything else, all of those different things should be part of a larger strategy. And the way I approach it, like I don’t call myself a marketing agency. I’m really a fractional CMO. So my goal is to come in.

get a really good picture of what’s going on and try to determine how can we pull all of this together into a strategy that all of your marketing works together.

to start attracting the right customers. And for a lot of people, they’ve never really had it described that way. And they don’t understand exactly what it means when I talk about a brand or, you know, your ICP, which is ideal client profile. For those of you who don’t know, positioning, those types of things that really help hone your message so that you’re attracting the people you want. And sometimes even more importantly, not attracting the wrong people that just waste your time.

So that’s kind how I approach it. Just more from a holistic marketing strategy. But, you know, I really try to focus on the foundation and make sure that they understand what that means and how to get that in order so that the rest of their marketing really builds off of each other. It kind of compounds and starts attracting the people that they want.

speaker-0 (04:37.036)
Well, and one of the things, well, first of all, that’s why you’re here. And thank you for letting people understand that kind of context because a lot of people, like brand isn’t logo. Logo isn’t brand. I mean, they’re part of it, but it’s not the thing at all. But one of the things that we found over the years for ourselves included, but also clients that decided to essentially niche is that not only does it help attract the right customer,

but it actually helps the team deliver a better customer experience because they’re doing somewhat of the same thing over and over again. And so they actually become not only better at delivering said service, they get faster at it and they can do it more profitably. And so they not only get a good position brand to help control price because they become the choice, not a choice. And then so we see a massive compounding impact on this strategy that you’re referring to.

of people don’t necessarily understand the operational impact it can have when you find your lane and stick to it. Can you speak to that a little bit in terms of what you’ve seen some successes work with the clients you’ve kind of put this into? Sure.

speaker-1 (05:47.308)
Yeah, you know, it’s hard, especially when you’re starting out to talk about.

Customers you don’t want because anybody who’s starting a small business, right? You want to sell everything to everybody, right? You’re just trying to make things happen pay the bills hire new people So it’s hard to say no to people sometimes but it’s really really important because and I think I probably said this in Scottsdale and some other podcast episodes I’ve done like if you’re trying to attract everybody you’re really attracting no one right if if your message is really diluted It’s gonna get lost. So if you focus on

a particular customer or something that you do really, really well, it makes it easier to sell yourself. And it makes it, like you said, for your employees, it makes it easier for them to deliver because they know what the expectations are. I have a customer, Absolute Landscapes in Maryland, great company. They’re actually a customer of yours too, Rob. And they’ve been in business for 20 years. Their brand, their logo was kind of old. It was a little bit invisible and they…

They were trying a little bit to be everything to everybody and they didn’t have a solid positioning. And after a few conversations with them, they do really nice high-end residential work, but they were trying to sell it in the same way that everybody else is, right? By saying, hey, we’re the best. Which when everybody says the same thing, like, does it mean?

speaker-0 (07:09.76)
It’s like the real estate agent on the back of the bus number one. Yeah, right. It’s number one.

speaker-1 (07:15.906)
Yeah, so it just wasn’t helping them. They didn’t have something that differentiated them and that’s really what they needed. And in talking to them, what really sets them apart is the customer experience that they deliver, right? They’re really big on communication, having a person own the project from start to finish to make the actual installation and the planning part of it so much more enjoyable. So that’s what we focused on as part of their positioning and their message. And we built a framework called experience more that

we’ve defined on their website. so now they have something tangible that they can speak to that sets them apart from the other people in Howard County, Maryland. And that combined with, you know, the, much more visible brand that we’ve put together for them has really started to pay off. And in the last, I guess I’ve been working with them for 10 months now, things are just starting to click. People are starting to recognize them. Their brand is, is becoming sticky, right? It’s becoming memorable. And when you have something that you’re

brand stands for, that’s what happens.

speaker-0 (08:17.582)
Super cool and great example. You get a chance to do that. So like there’s a couple of things. One is if you start doing this type of work properly with you and then through execution and you start working with the same type of customers, you start to see the patterns, you know what their tendencies are, what they like, what they don’t like. The team starts to understand how to show up better, how to deliver better. And the pattern recognition becomes this really.

huge like growth gap from you to the competition because they work with all these different people so they can’t see all the nuances but because you’re doing it you get a chance to see the patterns. When it comes to your experience working with clients and the ethos of this whole show is like what is the growth constraint holding entrepreneurs back in the green industry we keep getting all of the most successful entrepreneurs saying the same thing.

And by successful, we define by they’ve built a business that doesn’t depend on them. And they all say it’s, was me. I’m the bottleneck. I was in the way. I didn’t grow myself. I wasn’t thinking properly, whatever. And so just curious in your experience working with all these different landscape clients, entrepreneurs, leaders, and teams, what separates the ones that grab this and run versus ones that get stuck or don’t see the true value and like.

How can you share that with the folks listening to help them understand the shift that they might need to consider making?

speaker-1 (09:36.172)
Yeah, that’s a really good question and it’s it’s not always the same but one of the kind of underlying patterns

that I see and then I have to try to wrestle with. I even had a conversation with somebody about this yesterday. When you start a business from the ground up and you build it from your garage or your basement to let’s say you’re at, you know, $2 million now and you’ve been doing this for five years, like this business is really important to you. It becomes personal, almost like it’s like one of your kids, right? So I have to be really careful when I come in there and tell them that their kids ugly, right? Or that they’re not doing something right because

they could take that really personally. So when I have a conversation with somebody and I say, you know this logo that you did 20 years ago on that you drew on a napkin and put it on, you know, Microsoft Paint or whatever, it’s, it’s working against you now. Sometimes they have a really hard time letting that go.

You know, what I try to get people to understand is like your business has to evolve. It has to grow. It’s and at some point, just like with your kids, you have to send it off to college and trust that it’s going to flourish on its own. And you know, just like you do with people, when you bring in people for different positions, you have to trust them. Sometimes they’re going to make mistakes, you know, but you have to give them that trust and you have to give somebody like me that trust in order for your

business and your brand to get to the next level and grow. And I recognize how difficult that can be as someone who’s grown a business from my basement myself. It’s hard. It’s hard to pull yourself out of it because it’s so important to you. But at a certain point as a business leader, and I’m sure you know this yourself, Rob, you do become the bottleneck. All of us do. I’m having those conversations right now with myself because I want to keep doing all the design work, but I know that I can’t, you know? So.

speaker-1 (11:28.404)
I struggle with the same things, you have to release some of that and trust people with your baby or it’s going to get stuck. Probably in that one to $3 million range, you’ll never, never break through without being able to release it and trust people who are experts that can help you move it forward.

speaker-0 (11:45.976)
the adding and you nailed it. I think that that three million ceiling is true because I think with just sheer grit will determination and grind. You can hold all the ropes together at three million. You might be killing yourself, but you could probably do it.

speaker-1 (12:02.92)
Recipe for burnout for sure.

speaker-0 (12:04.746)
Yeah, exactly. Maybe a heart attack, at least high blood pressure. So what do you see in terms of behaviors that people can observe in the folks that do trust versus the ones that don’t?

speaker-1 (12:17.546)
Yeah, that’s a really good question. think it’s trust is

It’s an easy thing to wrap your head around and you can say, yeah, I trust you go do this. I think that has to there has to be another ingredient there and that’s patience. And that’s something I talk about in marketing a lot, especially if I’m doing a brand project, you know, a lot of people, they want to hire a marketing person or they’re looking for social media or, know, somebody to do Google ads, whatever it is, they want to see results in 30 days. And that’s the reality is that’s not how this works, you know, and so you have to what do you

speaker-0 (12:50.062)
What you Get me some results!

speaker-1 (12:52.728)
Yeah, I need the phone to ring right now. There’s some of those levers you can pull, sure really the majority of the work that I do you don’t really start to see the fruits of your labor for six to eight months.

speaker-0 (13:07.062)
or three years in terms of like massive impact.

speaker-1 (13:10.229)
Sure, yeah, yeah, like.

You know, one of the one of the foundational pieces that I always work with people on that is close to your world is like most people are not they don’t have any kind of SEO strategy, right? And and today with Google and then all of the AI chat and how search is changing so quickly, you need to have that strategy. But it’s it’s not something you can implement in 30 days. You see the impact. might see some slight upticks, but you’re really not going to see how impactful it is for six to eight months.

people to wait that long, especially if they’re paying somebody, you know, several hundred dollars every month to do something like this.

speaker-0 (13:49.326)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (13:51.466)
So trust and patience is that something that they have to have. And it’s difficult, especially if you’re struggling and you’re like, just, you know, I got to sell another pool or I’m not going to make it through the summer. Right. And those are real problems that you understand. But marketing is an investment just like anything else. Right. If you buy a piece of fleet equipment, it’s not going to pay itself off immediately.

speaker-0 (14:13.45)
That’s a great great analogy

speaker-1 (14:16.01)
It takes time and this is the same thing. It’s the same kind of investment. But if people have the trust and the patience to let it play out and let it unfold, it does work. And you know, one of the things that I tell landscapers all the time is because 90 % of the people in your market are, they don’t have a strategy. They’re just saying we’re the best at X. The opportunity to do it right and win is there if you have the trust and the patience to implement it and wait.

to see it grow, right?

speaker-0 (14:46.026)
And it’s interesting, like we talk about the marathon versus the sprint a lot and how the, lot of the most successful folks think in years, not quarters. And I think that this patience piece that you’re touching on is that it’s like, we’re going to plan out what the next three years looks like. We’re going to install this foundational component year one. We’re going to start to drive that component in year two. And we’re going to see an optimized experience with a better predictable

you know, say sales funnel in year three, those folks kill the short-term thinkers. So trust and patience, I think is a huge thing that a lot of folks don’t necessarily.

know if they have or not. think a lot of people say, trust my people. I trust the process, but then, know, patience maybe isn’t there behind it. Cause I trusted it for two months and it didn’t work. I think it’s a really cool perspective. And so when you’re, when you’re working with these folks and working through brand and strategy, what kind of ways of thinking should an entrepreneur listening to this consider so that they can get themselves ready to start, you know, laying down this kind of foundational piece. think to, to,

point earlier and why I was so excited to have you on this is because so many people ignore this. The ones that actually execute and start to compound their efforts over time truly do win. They’re the $10 million plus companies. There’s obviously outliers, but if I’m sitting there today, say I’m a $2 million business and I want to get to 10 and this whole brand strategy marketing thing is something that I see.

There’s opportunity here. know I need to move into this thing. I want to get to 10 million plus. What do I need to do to get my head right to start going down that path?

speaker-1 (16:27.852)
That’s a good question and you for brand I think you mentioned this a few minutes ago like it’s not just your visual identity the logo and stuff that goes with that It’s your positioning your brand voice. What you say is just as important as how you look so to me It’s about two things it’s clarity and then also consistency because what a lot of people will do is they’ll they’ll come in they’ll refresh their brand they’ll do this whole new thing and then just like we talked about earlier with Patience after a year if they’re not seeing it, they’ll change it again

Right

And if you don’t take the time to create the proper strategy and a solid clear brand and then stick with it, what you’re doing is creating another problem which is confusion, which is the ultimate enemy to branding and successful marketing. Customers don’t know who you are and what you stand for. They’re gonna click out and go see somebody else, right? It needs to be super clear and it needs to be simple and you need to beat them over the head with it for two or three years

for it really, really sticks. But once you do that, you own that that becomes your identity and your promise to them. And that what’s that’s what makes you memorable. That’s what makes people think about you when they have a problem because really what you want is to own a piece of their brain. And that’s what a good brand does. You know, like if I say FedEx on this show right now, I promise you everybody listening can picture

either a truck or a package colors are purple and orange or floating through your head. Right. And part of it is because everything they do and everything they deliver on and have for the last 30 years is exactly the same. They have a very clear system for how visually their blank brand is delivered, how people talk about it. Right.

speaker-0 (18:15.852)
And if you say UPS, you see brown shorts.

speaker-1 (18:18.86)
Yep, absolutely. And so if you’re changing your uniforms, you’re changing your truck wraps, you’re changing what you offer all the time, people don’t understand who you are. They may think of you two years ago as an entirely different company and that is working against you. So it’s really about picking a strategy, Elaine, staying with it until you own it. And that’s, it’s a really difficult thing to do, but that’s what separates.

people like FedEx from the guy who can’t get past three million because he’s not willing to let go and trust other people to drive the business forward.

speaker-0 (18:53.131)
I think that’s where it’s like

The other component to all this, mean, I want to jump into that in a quick second, which is what you said at the very beginning. But what you’re saying now, this idea of like, if you try to change who you are or who you work with, you’re essentially, it’s like the age old adage I say all the time with Bruce Lee, right? It’s like, I fear not the man that practices 10,000 kicks. I fear the man that practices one kick 10,000 times. And so it’s like, if you just keep trying a different kick, it just doesn’t get stronger. And I think that applies. The thing that I think is really cool, what you said at the beginning about working with folks,

that check their egos at the door and know to ask for help. I think that’s where it’s like, you don’t have to know the answer to this brand thing. You just need to understand the impact it can have when done properly and then speak to somebody like John. I think that’s what’s beautiful about this ecosystem of this landscape industry is that we’re starting to see these specialists like you start to join the industry so that you can help guide folks through this thing. They don’t need to.

to know how to do it. So then going back to this idea of the mindset of the entrepreneur, the impact of brand and marketing, the stuff that doesn’t work. What have you noticed, and let’s just say I’m listening to this right now and I’m like, okay, you know what, I actually think at some point in the next 12 months I’m gonna start down this path.

What do I need to do to get my ducks in a row so that I can like come to the table as a great client? Because I’ve been I’ve been setting myself to engage not to say every listening has to but I’m just trying to help people understand What are some of the tactical steps they can start taking today? To get to get ready for this type of approach

speaker-1 (20:37.004)
Yeah, sure. I mean, on the one side…

If you don’t want to take the time to do a few of those things and you want me to help, I can certainly do that. But to give your listeners, you know, some helpful tips and tricks, like the first thing I would tell people to do is like, let’s figure out really who you are, right? Cause you’re not everything to everybody. We talked about that before. What is it that you’re really good at or that you want to focus on? And then who is that for? Like really understand your customer. And when, when we talk about your customer, your ICP, it’s not just

you know people in my city that own a home have money yeah that’s that’s not good enough right you need to really understand

speaker-0 (21:14.83)
that have money.

speaker-1 (21:21.218)
The demographics are important, but you gotta go deeper. Understand what really motivates them, right? What are they passionate about? What are they really like? What are they afraid of? Those motivators are what you really wanna understand. And then, you know, take the time to understand your competition, right? It’s not, a lot of people say, I don’t pay attention to those guys. I don’t care what they’re doing. It’s not about…

being in competition with them necessarily, but if you don’t know what they’re doing, you don’t know what they’re saying, how they’re positioning themselves, you might make the mistake of saying the same thing. And if you’re doing that, you’re not going to stand out.

But if you understand who your competitors are, what they’re saying, even what colors they use, those types of things, you can start to make some little incremental changes to make sure make yourself stand out to differentiate yourself and figure out really what is that lane that you want to own? Do you want to be the top custom pool maker? Do you want to focus on outdoor kitchens? What is it that you can focus on that you’re really good at that you like that can set you apart in the marketplace? And who is that customer that you’re selling it to? Like really, really

on a deep level. That’s a good place to start from to start to understand how your brand might evolve and where it can take you next.

speaker-0 (22:36.846)
That’s so cool. I went as you’re telling the story. I just pulled up Sun Valley, Sun Valley landscaping. They’re out of Omaha. I don’t know you know these guys, Paul and Ashley, awesome brand. You have like darks and oranges in terms of like visibility in the community is unbelievable, but they have this property maintenance approach where they, do all services or nothing because their customers care about ease. They don’t want to talk to anybody. They don’t want to have to manage anything. They just want to have an epic property. They can enjoy whatever.

they want and they figured this out I don’t know maybe seven or eight years ago and what was crazy was that because and they were having such a hard time with it because they had all these people calling being like well I don’t need lawn care like I’ll take care of my own lawn I need you guys to do my you know my gardens and you know I got this other piece of the I’d love to do like this water feature they’re like

How can we say no to this? But then they’re deploying all their resources inefficiently because they’ve got a setup where they bring everything to the property and they can be way faster at it and really good at it. And so once they’ve decided they’re like, okay, no more words, everything or nothing. There we go.

speaker-1 (23:44.354)
You’re back. You’re back.

speaker-0 (23:45.442)
That was awkward. Once they decided and they stuck to everything or nothing and then they started making it all about we’ll do everything and we’re the company that does everything. Yeah, they just, now they’re on the path to 20 million. Like that’s their next goal.

speaker-1 (24:02.572)
Yeah, that’s a really solid example of how that strategy can work. Right. Because like I was talking before, when you’re new and you’re just starting the, the idea that you want to repel people from your business sounds totally counterintuitive. Right. Yeah. But that that’s just as important because if you’re attracting the wrong people, you’re wasting a lot of time, even if it’s just on the phone talking to people who are, you’re never going to make a dollar. Right. And all of that time that you’re wasting is

is costing you a lot of money. You could be better spent chasing the right people.

speaker-0 (24:37.723)
and servicing the great customers.

Yeah, we talk about all the time too. mean, there’s so many similarities in how we approach this stuff, except for the fact that we don’t do the brand strategy. So this is why John’s on the call, on the show. We talk about ABC clients. like you have awesome clients. You’ve got B clients that could become awesome clients and awesome clients love your stuff, pay full price, tell people about you, smile when they see you, have a glass of wine with you when you show up. B clients aren’t quite there. They can become A clients. They have potential, but maybe they’re just not doing all the services or they just don’t spend the right or maybe they’re just starting.

And then there’s C clients who are complainers and they suck the lifeblood out of you and your business every day. And so it’s like, how do we cut these out of the business? And it can be really scary to your point about the idea of like cutting customers because they still pay, but people don’t necessarily see.

you know, financially the cost of keeping them. But I mean, that, that in itself becomes again, another operational impact because how many people inside your organization have to deal with C’s love their day to day and how much time is being sucked from the A’s, you know, to delight and create epic customer experiences. I think I very much agree with what you’re saying. Then go ahead. You got to talk because I got another one I want to ask.

speaker-1 (25:52.268)
Yeah.

Yeah, I was just going to give everybody another example because I want to make sure people understand that this can work, right? Another example. It does work. Yeah. Yeah. So another example of this, you probably know Tom and Dana at MSC up in Minnesota. Yeah. So all they do is.

speaker-0 (26:03.893)
not only can, does.

speaker-0 (26:13.058)
yeah, yeah, great folks.

speaker-1 (26:17.154)
Commercial seed and sod right they do grass if you ask Tom and Dana, they don’t even own a lawnmower, right? They don’t cut anything They just lay turf and they maintain it and they do ball fields, but it’s all seed and sod You know, they do a few other things but it’s it’s all grass and they have basically a ten million dollar company and they learned a long time ago that when they started the company when Tom and Dana were in college they were

They were just a landscaper just like everybody else. Got a couple of sod jobs and realized, wow, the profit margins on these are a lot better.

What if we just did that? And then as they got known for that, they dropped regular landscaping and mowing and all of that stuff, started to pick up some commercial work on top of the residential stuff. And they thought to themselves, shit, we make a lot more money on these commercial jobs. Maybe we should focus on those. And that’s what they’ve done. They kept focusing and finding their niche. And now they have this highly, highly profitable.

$10 million company and they do nothing but commercial sod and seed and I remember talking to Tom one time and he was telling me like probably once a year they make the mistake of taking a residential sod job because it’s one of their friends or one of their clients, you know, one of those type of things and when they get to the end of that job and they add everything up, they’re like we maybe made 2 % on that like we lost money on that job. So that’s why we and they’re complaining.

Yeah, right. And they’re not happy on top of everything else. So I just thought I would share that because it’s a really good example of somebody who niched in like really niched in on something and they’ve become such a specialist that they’re the person to call in the Minneapolis area. And they’ve got their profit margins dialed in to such a degree that they’re, they’re highly successful, very profitable. They’re growing. Yes, very beautiful.

speaker-0 (28:09.834)
And beautiful people. Beautiful people. Yeah, made, that’s a note. I gotta talk to Tom and Dana and get them on the show. So, and it’s a great example and there’s more, but if somebody were to want to reach out to you, how would they do that?

speaker-1 (28:25.582)
Very easy. You can go to my website.

which is not, it’s my name’s John T as in Tom in the middle of Dalton.com. So John T Dalton.com. And just hit the contact button. That’s very easy way to contact me or you can email me directly. It’s just John at John T Dalton.com. And I’d be happy to, you know, book a free call with you, talk to you a little bit about what’s going on, what your goals are and see if it’s a good fit. Because like everybody else, there’s certain people

I work with that I can help, certain people that I can’t help, but I’m happy to have a conversation with anybody and at least get them pointed in the right direction whether they’re a good client fit for me or not.

speaker-0 (29:11.124)
Awesome, love that. a question we ask everybody, speaker, resource, author, some kind of inspiration that gave you an aha moment down the road at some point, what was something that you’d recommend worth checking out?

speaker-1 (29:24.254)
That’s a really good one. I’m trying to think of something recent. This is a little bit more philosophical, right? It’s not certainly industry specific, but I just read this book for the second time. It’s called The Alchemist, and it’s really a fictional book about this boy who’s finding his purpose. And there’s, it’s written in a little bit of an older style and it’s almost like an allegory, but you can find yourself in that and you can find a little bit about

you what are you searching for? What’s your purpose? Who are you? And the reason I read it again, I read it a couple years ago, is just to kind of remind myself of who I am and where I’m trying to go and what is it that I’m really after and what’s really important. So I really enjoyed that book and I recommend that to a lot of people.

speaker-0 (30:13.516)
Love that. I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that no one’s recommended that book and it is a great one. So thank you for that. You’re the best. You got any speaking engagements coming up? Are you going to any shows? there anywhere someone can come check you out if you’re going to be doing something?

speaker-1 (30:25.654)
Next thing on my gin, will be at the leanskaper event in Chicago coming up in June. Not speaking there, but I will, I will obviously be around. They have like an advisors area. I know you, you were in Scottsdale and you’ve always got a couple of people at those shows too. So love talking to people, whether that’s at lunch or just milling about in between sessions. So after that, I don’t have anything else on the list for now. Summer vacations with, with family and stuff like that. Yeah.

speaker-0 (30:53.998)
Well, and the Leanscaper events, mean, they are, they’re really, really strong in terms of the industry. If there’s a, event that you wanted to go check out to see, can get some not only like great education, but really strong peer networking. It’s definitely worth checking out. Okay, dude, thank you so much for doing this and everybody for listening to another episode of the IAM Landscape Growth Podcast.

speaker-1 (31:13.471)
Absolutely. Thanks Rob.