Running a $4M Tree Biz with Humor, Hustle & Big Nuts – Jordan Upcavage

00:00
Robert
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the I Am Landscape Growth podcast, where entrepreneurs help entrepreneurs grow faster, better, and stronger in the green industry. From leadership to sales to recruiting and operational excellence, we cover the topics holding entrepreneurs back and share how to get past those bottlenecks with the best in the industry. I’m your host, Rob Murray, co founder and CEO of Intrigue, a digital marketing company focused on helping landscape companies grow. So sit back and enjoy the show. So we’re welcome to another podcast, another had episode of the I Am Landscape Growth podcast. I have. Or Jordan Upcavage on the show today, who is a unique guest, not only for the fact that he’s unique and crazy, but also because he’s one of the co hosts of the Green Setup podcast, which is a magazine which we’ll talk about.

00:49
Jordan
Yeah.

00:50
Robert
In preparation for said interview with you, I looked up your LinkedIn profile and found a. Nothing.

00:57
Jordan
You said you looked at my LinkedIn profile.

00:59
Robert
Yeah, there’s. There’s. There’s what?

01:01
Jordan
LinkedIn profile?

01:02
Robert
Yeah, that’s how that goes. Let me see. Let me just. Let me just show you what I got here. I got. I got two. Jordan Up Cabbage. Tampa. Jordan Up Cabbage Gibson.

01:15
Jordan
That’s.

01:16
Robert
Which. Which one’s more accurate?

01:18
Jordan
Tampa. The Gibsonton one is probably a Russian trying to file my taxes for me, so. And I don’t know if this is still the case, but if you Google my first and last name and go to images, it’s my college friend Duncan. That’s not me. I don’t. It was the first image that popped up. I’m gonna do it and see what the deal is.

01:39
Robert
Oh, no, you. Episode 167, you’re on the. The Green Grind podcast. Oh, there’s one. There’s one with you and Jason. There’s a couple videos, and this is just recent updates, so who knows? I’m also in north of the border, which I don’t know. You. You’re willing to talk to us anymore. Is that still a thing, you guys? Are we still cool?

01:59
Jordan
Yeah. Aren’t you, like, I don’t know, you have Governor Trudeau now. You know, you’re a. You’re a state. I mean, April. April 15th. Man, you got six days to get your taxes in or Uncle Sam’s coming after you.

02:13
Robert
Well, which. Interesting story in the States by the IRS being an independent private company, which is a different story altogether. But anyway, that’s not what we’re here to talk about. We’re here to talk about the growth constraints of landscape companies, and Jordan has got to Be part of one of the best tree service businesses, at least in Florida state, if not the country. Independent tree service. We had an opportunity to meet Jordan and Jason from Skyfrob Landscape at the Landscape show in Orlando in 2024.

02:42
Jordan
Yes, that was last summer, I think. Summer of 2024.

02:47
Robert
Yeah, exactly. And you know what? So I’m looking through, like, were there, we had a booth. Intrigue had a booth there. You know, meet landscapers, hang out with people. Marketing 101. Be where your customers are. And I’m looking through the directory of vendors, and I see green setup podcasts. I’m like, oh, cool. This guy’s. These guys have a landscape podcast. We should go talk to these folks. So I meander through this giant, you know, green space and cool exhibits, whatever. Come to you guys, and you guys are chilling out. You got this huge podcast set up. And I’m like, hey, what’s up, guys? Like Intrigue over here. They’re like, yeah, you want a beer? And I was like, did we just become best friends?

03:26
Jordan
I’m sitting here minding myself, and I. I don’t know. You’re trying to be. When you’re at those trade shows, you’re. You’re Mr. Happy. Always excitement. You’re trying to engage with everybody, and then you pretend to be interested in what everybody is saying, whether you are or aren’t. And here comes, you know, tall Rob and some tall, pretty, thin blonde girl. They come walking up like, hey, so you got a podcast. What’s all that about? And I’m like, who the are you? And then were talking, and I was like, well, you want a beer? Because that’s. That’s what we do where I come from. You just offer your neighbor a beer and see how they pass the litmus test. And next thing you know, we have a beer together. And we now have bunk.

04:07
Jordan
Bunk beds in the same room, and we have all this extra space for activities. Rob.

04:11
Robert
Yeah, it’s awesome, man. I appreciate you like crazy. And I. I really hope we don’t stay away from crossing the line today. Like, let’s. We can go. We can. We. We can break some boundaries. Okay, So I know we. We did a green setup podcast. Intrigued? I’m not sure if it’ll ever get aired. I. I hope one day.

04:29
Jordan
That was a green side down, right?

04:31
Robert
Green side.

04:32
Jordan
It was the most fun to listen to. But if we air that, Rob, there is no way I can run for public office. Well, that’s.

04:40
Robert
That’ right? That’s. That’s just Factual. Not to say you want to run for public office, but if you ever wanted to, you know, pull that card out, you want to make sure you don’t have, like, a, you know, messy.

04:51
Jordan
You never know.

04:52
Robert
Yeah. And. And so I. I’ve. I’ve had the opportunity to share said episode with a few people, and they said it’s the best episode they’ve ever heard of a podcast outside of, like, you know, the best podcast in the world, and that we should air it, you know, one day maybe. We will.

05:05
Jordan
Yeah. We might need a couple beeps. Beeps. The metaphor is still in there, but the direct hard evidence isn’t there for whatever we’re talking about, so I don’t.

05:16
Robert
Even know what you’re referring to.

05:17
Jordan
So what are we doing today? Rob, you have me on your show. I am a tree guy in Tampa, Florida. You are a marketing firm, as everybody knows, in Guelph, Ontario, Canada.

05:27
Robert
Well played. Your geography is on point. Jordan, give me credit.

05:31
Jordan
Yep. So I am probably one of the fewer arborists that you. You deal with on a occasional basis, but what would you like to accomplish in this. In this episode of the Intrigue Media Green growth thing here?

05:50
Robert
Yeah. Cool. So our main question is what’s the primary growth constraint holding entrepreneurs back in the green industry? So before you answer the question, can you give the audience a quick Kohl’s note summary of, like, your whatever last 10, 15, 20 years summarized in a minute or two how you got into space and, like, what your company’s up today?

06:12
Jordan
Yeah, sure. So I. I work for Independent Tree Service. It was started by my dad, Jerry, in 1978. So two years after high school, at the age of 20, my dad started Independent Tree Service with a pickup truck and a chainsaw, really having no idea of what he was doing. And.

06:33
Robert
And 20 years later, it’s just you doing the same thing.

06:37
Jordan
And 47 years later, I still work for menthol cigarettes and tall boys. So that’s how the business started. I grew up as a kid, you know, son of a tree guy, where, you know, when I was probably 7 or 8, we had a chipper in the front yard, and I was throwing pine cones in it. And my dad was just the coolest guy ever. And I wanted to emulate my dad because he was the hero. So I always wanted to be a tree guy growing up. And we have something called the Great American Teach in where? Public schools. You know, in elementary school and middle school, parents will come into the students and tell them what they do for a living, and My dad would come into the school and say, talladega Nights. You’re right, exactly.

07:24
Jordan
So my dad would bring the bucket trucks in, the grapple trucks, and the.

07:29
Robert
Bits is cool as shit.

07:30
Jordan
We’d all go to the parking lot and, like, the. It wouldn’t just be my class, it’d be the whole, like, kindergarten class would come out and then, like, I got the hunky air horn and I thought I was the cool kid. So anyways, I dragged.

07:42
Robert
You were the cool kid, Jordan. We all know.

07:44
Jordan
So I dragged branches. Working with the crew in the summers of high school. I am the log donkey. I am the rake master. I am the ground guy. So I did that during the summers of high school. I ended up studying horticulture in college, so I have a bachelor’s degree from University of Florida. The Gators.

08:02
Robert
You have a degree?

08:04
Jordan
Believe it or not, yeah. Wow.

08:06
Robert
It’s amazing.

08:06
Jordan
Yeah, And a pretty damn good gpa too, so that’s not surprising.

08:11
Robert
For the record, you might come off as a fun loving, like, easy going, but you’re also pro and you be pro. So I. That’s not surprising.

08:18
Jordan
Pretty damn smart, too. I won’t let you know it, but I’m pretty damn smart.

08:22
Robert
I get it.

08:23
Jordan
Yeah. So study horticulture. And when I was a student, I had to prove myself, that I could be on my own. So I was a landscaper in Gainesville, and I made no money because I didn’t know the value of me. And the first year in business as a landscaper, I paid myself $19,000, which is so far below poverty, it’s ridiculous. Anyhow, you fast forward a couple years, I moved back to Tampa. My dad had a mutiny with his business. The culture was bad and everybody quit. Slash got fired. So I got a phone call and said, damn it, son, now’s the time. So within three days, I gave all my clients to Jason Lee, my podcast co host, who was my roommate at the time. I said, jason, take all of my accounts. I’m moving to Tampa.

09:06
Jordan
So with three days notice, I moved to Tampa. And we rebuild the entire company. So we run five crews every day. We have a pile of equipment and man lifts and wheel loaders and bucket trucks and grapple trucks. I have five certified arborists with the business. I just put through five guys through certified arborist school that’ll be taking their exams in the next two months. So I am two months away from the potential of having 10 certified arborists with independent tree service and amazing. Yeah, five crews. I think 22 guys that wear hard hats. I have an operations manager. I have a full time salesman. I have a director of employee development guy that I hired from the gym. He was my personal trainer and now he does all of my hiring in payroll.

09:56
Jordan
And I made him a fancy email signature of the director of employee development because it sounded cool. So that’s what we do.

10:03
Robert
And he fits the bill.

10:04
Jordan
Yeah. And he’s huge and on still rights, so why not? You’re hired. So we do a lot of tree trimming.

10:11
Robert
John Cena.

10:12
Jordan
Yeah, bigger than that. John Cena’s cute. Tiny. So we do a lot of tree trimming, a lot of tree removal and then the specialty weird stuff. A lot of cabling and bracing lightning protection. Rob. I built some props to hold up a tree that was falling over. And look at the size of my nut. Look at my nut in my washer.

10:33
Robert
Those are some huge nuts.

10:35
Jordan
Tell me about it.

10:36
Robert
For anybody not watching this and just listening to this, Jordan’s got a huge nut in his hand.

10:43
Jordan
One huge nut. Yeah. So that’s gotta be like a.

10:46
Robert
What, 4 inch diameter? What is that?

10:49
Jordan
The washer’s 4 inch diameter. The hole in there is 2 inch diameter zinc coated rod. So I have a prop holding a tree up and engineer build. I had an engineer design this damn thing. So the prop is like 15ft long. It’s 6ft in the ground, all solid concrete. Designed by an engineer. And then it’s a 6×6 square tube hollow with this 2 inch diameter threaded rod coming out, drilled into the bottom of the tree to hold it up so the thing doesn’t hit the ground. It is pretty badass.

11:20
Robert
Yeah, I mean that’s like legit engineering.

11:23
Jordan
Yeah.

11:24
Robert
So. So that gives. So you’re doing like, you know, the crazy people don’t do. You’re in Tampa. Overall revenue, the company ish4 so 4 million dollar operation. So. And you’ve been through the thick and thin. It’s gone from like hey, we grew this thing and it was totally trashed. You got involved, we grew back up again. So.

11:48
Jordan
So it’s like we can get prime for me to start a drug habit to just tank it again. So I have another project to fix it again.

11:55
Robert
Oh well. So actually that’s a cool topic about the wartime CEO. So I’m going to bring that up in a second. Okay. So you’re articulate, you’ve been through it. You’re crazy. It’s awesome. You’ve run six, you’re running a successful business. You’re in Tampa. Formula operation. So if we go straight to it, for the sake of the show, what is the primary growth constraint, from your experience, that holds entrepreneurs back in the green industry?

12:25
Jordan
Oh, man. So I will start by answering that I have not listened to any of your other episodes, so I can’t have the water salted. So I don’t know if this has been answered or not, because I haven’t listened to anything yet. So here’s my answer on what is the hesitant. What is the what? The constraint. I don’t think it’s money thing. I don’t think it’s a lack of cash and funding. I don’t even think it’s.

12:52
Robert
Hold on. Special guess.

12:54
Jordan
NASA. Oh, my gosh. You look so much prettier than Rob does. It’s good to see you. And you look so much smarter than he does.

13:04
Speaker 3
I just get all the compliments when I come to this. Tell me how much better I am than Rob. Continue.

13:11
Jordan
Oh, and so much smarter. I mean, respect. Respectfully.

13:16
Speaker 3
Respectfully, though.

13:17
Robert
Respectful.

13:17
Speaker 3
Respectfully. It’s okay.

13:19
Jordan
You are the rudder of intrigue to keep the ship erect, not a wreck. Well, erect or upright, whichever one. Both of them.

13:27
Speaker 3
I knew coming to say hi to you was gonna just make my day. So There we go. 1am I. I’m gonna be in Miami. How far is that from you?

13:35
Jordan
Five hours.

13:36
Speaker 3
Oh, Florida is so big. It’s very annoying.

13:39
Jordan
It’s only a divorce’s drives away, Vanessa. No big deal.

13:43
Speaker 3
It’s just a divorce drive away. I don’t even understand that. I’m on a podcast. Oh, no, you didn’t.

13:55
Jordan
Hope you’re listening, babe. I’m gonna drive down to Miami and hang out with Vanessa. Should we file the paperwork now?

14:04
Speaker 3
Okay. Continue with this awesome podcast that we always do. But I am going to be there, so everybody should come. Like, meet me somewhere.

14:10
Robert
Okay.

14:11
Speaker 3
See you soon. Bye.

14:12
Jordan
See you. Vanessa.

14:15
Robert
She was on for like a minute and dropped off bomb. Like, how crazy is that?

14:19
Jordan
You really got to work on your culture there, Rob.

14:21
Robert
I know. Hey, did you know that we won the 14th best place to work in Canada?

14:26
Jordan
In the. An entire. All of Canada?

14:29
Robert
Yeah. 14th best place. Great places to work. Wow. That’s a part of your organization? Audited. Yeah. Thanks, buddy.

14:34
Jordan
You guys have like a couple hundred thousand people in your country, right?

14:37
Robert
A couple hundred thousand? Yeah.

14:41
Jordan
That’s good, man. How do you know? I’m curious. No, no, no. 14th in the entire country. That’s huge. How’d you land?

14:47
Robert
That’s a big deal. So there’s A company called Great Places to Work. They, they global organization. You apply to be part of it. They interview all of your team, survey anonymously, and then based on the feedback of the results, you essentially get a chance to see how you do. And we did. All right.

15:02
Jordan
So it’s really, it’s employee derived on the answer. Yeah, yeah.

15:06
Robert
Anonymous feedback from employees.

15:08
Jordan
I will say this, Rob, from working with your team, and I’m not saying this to stroke you here on your show, but every team member that you have that I have had a conversation with or correspondence with, whether it’s a zoom with Alex Bain or it’s an email with somebody, I don’t remember their name, it is prompt, professional, timely, and legitimately easy to work with and a pleasure to work with. And I can tell that your employees must like what they do because you can’t fake attitude. Right. And my ops manager named John has a four year degree in computers and he can like pick up on all your Internet things that I don’t understand. And he has told me that, dude, this company is legit out of some other ones that we interviewed before. Those are crap.

16:04
Jordan
These people are actually legitimate and with the systems and processes and the timeliness is very impressive. So I think it is well deserved. And that is no bullshit for just because we’re on air. That is a sincere experience that I’ve had.

16:19
Robert
Thanks, buddy. I appreciate it. And I might ask you to expand upon it at some point later, but I do very much appreciate sentiment. And so just so everybody’s clear, the relationship that we have slash started and continue to work on, I think were the first sponsor.

16:38
Jordan
Yes.

16:39
Robert
Podcast, right?

16:40
Jordan
Yeah.

16:41
Robert
And so we said, okay, you know what? Here, we’ll give you some cash, which I’m not sure if we’ve paid you if we’ve ever been invoiced. So I think knowing Jason.

16:47
Jordan
He never invoiced you.

16:49
Robert
Yeah. So, like, money’s there for you anytime you want, but we’re like, okay, we’re gonna give you some money to be your sponsoring podcast because you’re talking to landscapers and tree guys and whatever. For anybody who hasn’t had a chance to listen to green side of podcasts, like, you gotta do that. And then we’re like, okay. And we’re also gonna build your green setup podcast website. And then we’ll, we’ll do marketing for independent tree service pro bono, outside of ad spend. If it goes well, you stay with us. Maybe Jason Comes on board and we’ll see how it goes. And I just, I appreciate, you know, maybe we put a little faith, you guys, you put a little faith in us and I don’t know, just.

17:30
Jordan
Well, all of that is happening. So you did my deal for six months pro bono. I have an invoice that’s due in a week or so for our six months that has been reached maturity and Jason has just signed up with you. So you are earning two customers from your investment and risk take of. What the hell? Let me see. Let me take a chance on these guys and see how it works. We’ve been running advertisements for you on our show. I don’t know if your phone is rang or not, but what it also did is there’s a GPS tracking stuff that I have in all my trucks that Jason has in all his trucks. And they now are a sponsor of our show in trade for advertisements.

18:09
Robert
So feel free to name drop. Feel free to name drop.

18:12
Jordan
Boom. Yeah, because, you know, I think what’s the GPS tracker?

18:15
Robert
Tell them, tell the audience.

18:16
Jordan
Yeah, it’s called GS TrackMe. So Google GS TrackMe. And it is forward facing cameras on the windshield of your trucks. You can also get rear facing cameras to look at the driveway or the driver on the windshield of your truck. And GPS tracking that shows live time, speed, stop, whether you’re idling or moving, your maximum speed. That’s been done. And it’s $200 per camera per vehicle, one time fee. So each truck is 200 bucks. You own the camera forever. And then it’s $35 per month per camera. So I spent, I have, I don’t know, 11 trucks and I spent $2,200 to get it installed. And then it’s 35 times 11. What, that’s what? There you go. That’s what I pay a month, no contract, month to month, no contract.

19:15
Jordan
And I can look right now and see all my trucks live time, where they are, how fast they’re moving, if they’re idling, how long they’ve been stopped in front of the house. And what was really awesome is one of my work trucks was involved in a minor collision in traffic because we had the camera. When the cop showed up, the cop immediately assumed were in the right because we had cameras and our trucks are clean and we’re professional. And then it didn’t even go to process of whose fault is it? It was a. Don’t even exchange information. Just drive away. You’re each on your own.

19:52
Jordan
So we didn’t even need to really get into the nitty gritty of who is actually in the right or wrong because it was already determined that were in the right because of all of the assumptions of crap that we had. But you rewind that tape and look at it and.

20:04
Robert
Questionable.

20:05
Jordan
Let’s just say were in the right.

20:07
Robert
Perfect. Yeah. Okay. That’s awesome. And yeah. So anybody listening to this? GS tracker, obviously a really cool tool, and one of the things you need to know about insurance companies is that if you have this stuff in place, and you might know this story, and you probably do, but if you have this stuff in place and you have a driver who’s constantly speeding or going through stoplights or not driving properly and you do nothing about it, when they do get into an accident and there’s evidence that you’ve seen bad driving and did nothing about it, you don’t get insurance. So just make sure that if you are doing this stuff, you got to follow through on making sure you give corrections to the drivers. Call it null and void. And this is for the audience, not for you.

20:46
Jordan
Yeah, yeah. Or they’ll hire some, you know, attorney that’s going to argue that the business owner is negligent, that they knew that they had a driver that.

20:54
Robert
Exactly.

20:55
Jordan
You do nothing about it. So it’s also your fault, business owner, for negligently keeping this person on the road.

21:00
Robert
That’s the point. Yeah, that’s a cool one. All right, so wait, we got back. You said growth constraint. You’re like, it’s not cash. You know, there’s. There’s lots. I don’t think it’s cash. So what’s the growth constraint?

21:10
Jordan
I don’t think it’s people, but it’s easy for us to. About not having good employees or the employee pool. That’s an easy one that everybody goes to.

21:18
Robert
I don’t think it’s the most common answer, which I would argue is wrong. To your point.

21:22
Jordan
I think it’s the lack of the decision maker willing to take a risk or willing to step out of their comfort zone to try something. It’s the fear of failing or the fear of hard work, of, oh, no, that’s way too hard. I’m not doing that, Rob. I just showed you my biggest nut that I’ve ever used. This was a pain in the ass.

21:47
Robert
Would you stop showing me your big nuts?

21:49
Jordan
Yeah. Do you know how much of a pain in the ass it was to design this thing, to source this material, to have the fabricator weld the damn thing. But I have a project that’s going to go in seminar when I’m in front of an ISA event, given a speech and it’s going to be that braggadocious, you know, stretching contest in front of everybody. Look how cool I am. My first lightning protection job that I sold was a customer that spoon fed it to me. Hey Jordan, how’s my live oak? Perfect. Well, what’s the worst thing it could or what’s going to be the most likely thing that’s going to be the detriment to the tree? I said other than a world ending hurricane, a lightning strike. He said well can you do anything about lightning? Well yes I can.

22:30
Jordan
I can put in a lightning protection system. Never done it. And I stroked a number and I sold it and then I had to figure it out. So I researched the ANSI standards, the BMPs. I learned how to do it and I frickin did it. And now I am the expert enlightening protection and cabling and bracing and supplementary support in the state of Florida because I tried it and I do a ton of it. And like plant health care, right? That’s a huge barrier to entry in the state of Florida due to licensing. Well, in 2023 I bought a ticket to the TCIA conference in Louisville, Kentucky, that is no, St. Louis. St. Louis, Missouri, where the arch is. And I said I’m starting a plant health care division.

23:14
Jordan
So I bought an airplane ticket to Missouri and I attended every plant healthcare seminar that I could. Figured out what I want to use, hired a certified pest control operator on my books, guy named Ken. So now I’m a full time employee with the big boy license. I have a pesticide license with Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, the FDACS license. I have it all. I have a full legitimate legal plant health care division where I can put any pesticide except termites. I can do anything to you. I could fertilize your grass, I can do whatever the hell I want. And now I have a completely legitimate fertin chem division for trees which opens me up to reoccurring revenue. So yeah, it’s the lack of taking risk and working hard because damn it is Rob. It is a lot of work.

24:01
Jordan
It’s what keeps you up at night. It’s what makes me work 70 hours a week. But that’s okay. That’s the biggest constraint because then you get layover and overlap of jobs and projects that normally wouldn’t be your deal but you get exposed to them. Because of whatever you’ve done in the past. And then it’s a snowballing of potential for growth.

24:25
Robert
That’s what you’re saying. So what I’m hearing though is it’s the owner is the growth constraint. The decision maker, in your words, which a decision maker. And I gotta say, without a shadow of a doubt, of the 70 plus episodes we’ve done, the. The number one answer has always been staff are hard to find. And the most successful people always answer the growth constraints me. And once I realize it’s me, then I could break through it and realize that success is between my ears more than it is with my hands.

24:56
Jordan
Absolutely. You can’t pawn it off and make an excuse like whoever this jocko extreme ownership guy is that I’ve never listened to any of his. You can’t make an excuse. The reason why my kids suck is because I’m a bad dad. The reason that my marriage isn’t good is because I’m a poor communicator and made really bad decisions. It. The answer is always flows uphill. It’s always you. Well, why do my drivers suck? Why did they not? Why did they jackknife the. The chipper in the truck and trailer? Well, it’s not their fault. It’s. You didn’t effectively train them how to operate that equipment back up the trailer.

25:30
Robert
It flows or you did and they just. And you kept subpar people, and that’s on you.

25:35
Jordan
There you go. You made a decision to keep them right or you ineffectively train them. So it. It always goes to the owner or the end decision maker is always the one that is responsible at the end of the day.

25:50
Robert
And I just think like that thought process for anybody listening, for everybody listening, whatever. The idea that everything in your organization happens for one of two reasons. Either you model it or you accept it. And so if there’s something happening we don’t like, change it. Who is it up to? To change it?

26:11
Jordan
Yes.

26:12
Robert
I just. It’s refreshing to hear that. So one of the things though, that you said earlier when were doing like the kind of intro of like how you were in Gainesville doing your landscaping business for $19,000 a year, you said I underestimated the value of me. Yeah. What do you mean by that?

26:35
Jordan
So, hell, let’s think, man. I was 22 years old and in college trying to prove myself and make my own income. And I would do anything for a job, right? So I would underestimate a job because I really wanted to get it Because I was desperate. I had nothing to do. I’m self employed, right. I better sell something to do it. And I remember Rob, there was a job and I had a little relationship with. I had a relationship with a realtor. Non romantic. He was a guy. We had a business relationship together. I maintained a little apartment that he owned. That’s how we knew each other. His name was Eric.

27:23
Robert
And Eric is he passed or his name’s still Eric.

27:26
Jordan
His name is still Eric. He is.

27:27
Robert
Okay, okay, Eric. Eric’s still around. Good.

27:29
Jordan
Eric.

27:30
Robert
Yeah, Eric the realtor.

27:32
Jordan
Yeah. But I’m saying it past tent because I left and I haven’t talked to Eric and whatever. Anyways, he. They were selling a house and they needed a, a spruce up cleanup to sell this house. And I was going to mow and edge and weed eat and there was a pile of mulch on the ground that needed to be spread. And I said to myself, okay, it’s going to be four hours to do this and I’m going to charge $20 an hour. So, okay, Eric, it’s 80 bucks for me to do this. And he’s like 80 or 800. And I was like, 80 bucks. And he’s like, do it. And then I’m sitting there and I’m like, I have a black Nissan Frontier. I have a mower in the back and a weed eater and a pitchfork and a wheelbarrow.

28:23
Jordan
And I’m push mowing this place because I didn’t even have a writer right, Because I was that poor. I’m push mowing this, I’m weed eating this. I’m spreading this pile of mulch with a wheelbarrow and I’m thinking to myself, I’m in my senior year of college. I’m. I’m months away from a bachelor’s degree. I know more about photosynthesis than most people can forget. And I’m over here working, busting my ass for $80 for four hours. So I was saying, well, 20 bucks an hour, I’m not thinking the payroll that I have to pay myself, the work comp, my truck, my fuel. And I was just mad and pissy the whole time of what the hell am I doing? And I would underestimate stuff because I was so hungry to have anything. But that was such a healthy, important part of my life.

29:17
Jordan
I had to have that to then understand the value of me now, right? If that didn’t happen, then maybe I would still be underestimating myself. So now as this arborist, when you Google tree service Tampa and you Find independent tree service up there with, like, I don’t know, 500. We have 595 Google reviews now. Like, we’re like 30amonth is what we get. I don’t know, a ton of them. So you see that we’re, you know, Mr. Bigpecker in Hillsborough county independent tree service. When you call us, I’m not coming to your home for free. I charge a consult fee. If you want me or my dad or my salesman, Marti, if you want one of us to come to your house and, like, give you the gospel of tree work and a price, we’re gonna charge you a whopping 50 bucks.

30:12
Jordan
For 50 bucks, we’re gonna vet if you’re a shopper or a buyer. And I am.

30:16
Robert
And for 50 bucks, as a buyer, I’m all. I’m all in for a lot of reasons. One is, you just told me you’re a pro by telling me it’s 50 bucks. And I’m gonna tell you I’m serious and wanting to get this fixed for 50 bucks. What do I care about 50 bucks? If I care about 50 bucks, I’m not a good customer.

30:31
Jordan
And then we credit the 50 bucks to the invoice.

30:33
Robert
So you’re too generous.

30:35
Jordan
And I started it at $100. And then a lot of times I’ll meet with people and they might not need anything. They’re worried about things that they need nothing done. And so I kind of felt bad that they spent a hundred bucks for that, because I’m not even going to write them a proposal because I don’t need anything. So it’s 50 bucks. But it works the same. It does. The exact same thing a hundred dollars did is it vetted the people that I don’t want to work for anyway.

30:58
Robert
And for the person that doesn’t need anything, you give them peace of mind. For 50 bucks.

31:00
Jordan
For 50 bucks. Yeah. And then if the other thing it did, it made the people want independent tree service even more because we let them know that we value what the hell we’re talking about. And if you’re not going to come off 50 bucks, you can pound sand. We’re done with this phone call.

31:14
Robert
Easy peasy.

31:16
Jordan
Yeah, it’s a piece of cake. So. But that undervaluing myself was so important for me to understand the value of me now.

31:23
Robert
So when did you start doing the 50 buck thing or the 100 buck thing, whatever it was first?

31:28
Jordan
Oh, man, I went to Jeffrey Scott thing in New Orleans. Oh, man, I don’t know. I think.

31:40
Robert
Okay, so not too long ago, 2020.

31:42
Jordan
2021 is when I did it and it was discussed. It was become a destination, whatever the hell company. Yeah, yeah. And I don’t know if it was Jeffrey’s deal, but maybe it was at a, like a round table little breakout session. You’re having lunch with people and there was discussion of a consultation fee, and I thought it was interesting. And I took it to Tampa and I tried it and we haven’t turned it off since. And it was one of the best.

32:12
Robert
Wait a second, hold on, hold on. Someone said an idea and you’re like, I’ll just try it.

32:17
Jordan
Yes.

32:18
Robert
And then it worked. And you kept doing it.

32:22
Jordan
Imagine that.

32:23
Robert
Shut the front door.

32:24
Jordan
And you know what, Rob? If it didn’t work, you stop doing it.

32:29
Robert
But so then talk to the audience for a minute about the apprehension for this idea because there’s so many people. So, like, the consult’s one thing. We have a hard time sometimes getting people to sell their design. So in landscape companies, or even if in a tree company, if you have to come up with a plan on how you’re going to tackle something and you’re just gonna be like, cool, come up with a quote. We’ll do it for free. It’s gonna take us hours and hours of work and we’re gonna have to figure out all these different logistical things. Actually the most creative and more vision oriented work of all the things we do, because anybody can actually come there with a pickaxe and chainsaws, whatever. We’re gonna do the thing that’s like, strategic for free. You’re like, oh, I can’t charge for that.

33:05
Robert
Like, why not? So, like, talk to these people for a minute. They’re listening, being like, I don’t charge for designs. How do I start charging for things?

33:13
Jordan
So it was January 2020, because I looked on my photos and there’s me and Jason having cocktails January 2020 in French Quarter.

33:22
Robert
That’s awesome.

33:25
Jordan
I’m, I don’t want to say repeat the question, Rob.

33:28
Robert
Were they Espresso Martinez?

33:30
Jordan
No, I, I, they were just tough guy shots.

33:35
Robert
More to come in a minute. Anybody listening? Charging the console. And you just said it. I’m gonna give it a shot. Yeah, and you just did it. Versus people who are like, I can’t do that.

33:45
Jordan
I can’t do.

33:46
Robert
I’m like, I would never do that. So what happened when you tried? Yeah, so just walk us through it.

33:49
Jordan
Yeah. So it was scary as hell. I come Back. And I’m gonna talk to my dad, my boss, and I’m gonna talk to my sister, who’s my office manager. So it’s my sister that’s gonna have to say this over the phone. I need your credit card before they come give you a bid. And this is, let me also say, the way I structured this is. It is for new business only. If we have a history of working together, you are, we’re coming. So if you’re a repeat customer, I’m gonna come see you. Also, if you’re a direct referral, if Rob, you’re my customer, you refer me to your friend Vanessa or your coworker co worker Alex, we’re gonna come see them for no money. It’s a direct referral.

34:32
Jordan
So you’re probably a decent person because we’ve already done business with your brother, your sister, your father.

34:37
Robert
Yeah, that makes sense.

34:38
Jordan
So repeat and direct referral. There’s no consult fee, but if you see me in the neighborhood, you see the trucks, you find a Facebook or a Google. I don’t know you from Adam, and I don’t want to waste my time. So it was scary as hell, but I sold it. I was like, all right, it’s January. Let’s try it. If it doesn’t work, we’ll turn it off. So we came up with this elevator pitch of, you know, where are you? What are you looking to have done? And we always ask, how did you hear about our company? So our CRM software we use is called Single Ops, and we had Single Ops custom make a lead source tab for us to track where our leads come from, whether it’s repeat referral, the landscape, or Google or whatever.

35:24
Jordan
So it’s good to know where your leads come from. And when they say that they found us on Google or we saw you in the neighborhood or whatever, we say, great. You know what we can do? The way we operate is we charge a consultation fee for the certified arborist to come to your property. You of what’s on your property and what you need. They’ll put that together in a formal proposal. That will be your tree pruning or tree removal prescription. If you move forward with that project, then we’ll credit that consultation fee to the invoice. Is that something that you’re comfortable with moving forward? And if they say, oh, no. And here’s what it is, it’s, oh, no. I’ve already had four other bids. Nobody else is charging for that. It’s like, perfect. That was going to be a waste of time.

36:13
Jordan
If you’ve already gotten four bids, you’re hoping you get a lower price. I am definitely not your lower price guy. Okay. Or say, oh, well, I don’t know. I’m going to have to talk with my husband or wife about that. It’s like, okay, so were about to have a meeting with somebody that’s not confident enough to make a $50 decision on their own. Okay? So there’s that. Or they’ll say, yeah, that’s fine. Because they want the advice and expertise of a certified arborist of a. Or a landscaper that knows designing or knows something about drainage. The. What I don’t want to do is spend my time talking about removing the least amount of foliage possible to accomplish the objective. I’m not in the business of putting branches on the ground. I’m in the business of removing tissue from trees to accomplish objectives.

37:03
Jordan
And when I go through this whole deal on doing weight reduction, suppressing branches, keep it simple, and I totally Jedi mind them and put it in the right way, then they’re going to take my beautiful prescription and shop that to the cheap guy. That’s not fair to me. That’s proprietary brilliance. That’s in my head from my either college or seminars or studying or doing it. All of that knowledge was earned, so I better be compensated for it. You can have my knowledge in my. What do chefs do? You’re going to just open up the recipe book and have my recipes. It’s not how it works. You got to buy the cookbook, so I would just try it. You understand the value of yourself, and you have to have the confidence of, I’m not going to sell you something that I wouldn’t buy. And I.

37:50
Robert
Well, and the. And the best part is people that value you will do it without hesitation. And then you’ve got a good customer in your hands, or at least the potential for a good customer. And just for anybody listening to this whole thing, when someone says, you know, I talked to two other people and they didn’t charge me for this, the response is very simply, well, then how did it go working with them.

38:15
Jordan
Or not? You don’t even have to ask, that’s okay. I operate differently.

38:22
Robert
Well, and I’m just letting like, for the people listening, though, if you ever want to do it, you just say, how did it go working with them? Because they’ll go, well, I haven’t. And then you say, I’m confused. I don’t understand what’s in the way. They gave you what you’re looking for. Why are you talking to me? Well, I’m not. I’m not sure if they’re good. I want some more quotes. Okay, tell me more about that. But. Or just say, eff it. Bye, I’m done. Because, like, you’re not willing to pay 50 bucks. Like, let’s go. I’m talking more to the landscapers, too, that have designs are trying to sell for 2,500 bucks, five grand, whatever it might be. I just love the fact that there’s a couple things that come from this that I think is brilliant.

38:55
Robert
One is take some action, test something out. If it doesn’t work, stop it. If it works, keep doing it. You learn this idea, and you just implement immediately. And this is to your point about the constraint of owners not making decisions and taking some risks to try something new to see if they can make it happen. And there’s a lot of people that are probably in a comfort zone. And I find, too, as entrepreneurs grow, the tendency for risk taking lowers because they get into a spot where they’re like, okay, I’ve got something. I’ve got my family now. I’m making, you know, quote, unquote, decent money. I don’t want to screw with this, so I’m going to, like, I’m not going to start taking bold moves.

39:36
Robert
So for you, as you’ve grown the business, as you become bigger and more successful, what do you do to keep yourself fresh and sharp, to continue to take that approach?

39:49
Jordan
Oh, man. So this is not the answer, but it’s part of it. I have three kids and a beautiful wife and a lovely home, and I want to have nice things. Okay? And I also am aware that I work for my dad, but I don’t ever want to be accused of having the silver spoon in the mouth that it was handed to me. And I want it to be obvious that I’m out busting it, making it happen. And part of that is just I have to prove it to myself. Part of it is it’s in my DNA, and I like really hard work. Okay, so that’s part of it.

40:26
Jordan
But really, what’s changed in the real answer to this, other than genetics and DNA of, like, from me wired, like, I’ve been here for 15 years now, and when I came down here, I was in my 20s. And, yeah, I have no wife, no kids, right. I just. I bust my ass. But now with maybe fatherhood and a little bit of wisdom, it’s a little bit. I can’t be everything. I can’t be independent tree serpent. This. What happens if I get clobbered by a Mack truck when I leave where I’m parked right now on this podcast? And what am I? What legacy am I leaving over? How did I build or not build my employees to make them better people, more educated, lethal killers? That’s really what changed.

41:18
Jordan
It’s, you know little steel balls, there’s like six balls hanging from a little string and they go, right. So that’s the transfer of energy, right? All of this is the transfer of information. We go to seminars to transfer the information into my head. I go to New Orleans to transfer information to my head and try things. Why am I not transferring this energy and this information into my employee base to make them more lethal killers so I don’t have to be everywhere. So I said, hey, five crew leaders, screw it. You’re going into certified arborist school and I want you to become certified. And why not? And then you got to go to seminars to me. And you’re the next generation Richie with plant healthcare. You’re going to plant healthcare seminars. Let me build you as a more productive, lethal and better person.

42:12
Jordan
American income, the whole deal things.

42:16
Robert
Yeah. So then, so then, so now I’m.

42:17
Jordan
Just investing in people because I would like to like, have the business kind of run itself one day. I want to hire a second full time salesman. I want to put my foot on the gas and build this to where it can start going. And I have made more successful people that surround me instead of just being surrounded by labor robots that frustrate me that I have to pay a paycheck every week.

42:44
Robert
So then talk to me about the abundance mindset that you bring to the table around investing in people. When some people say, why would I go train people to become my competition?

42:55
Jordan
Well, that’s the hesitation, man. So I’m training people. If they, if they leave my business to then become their own tree guy, good for them. I can do it again. Good for them. Maybe one day I’m going to come across a job and it’s going to be a huge commercial thing and I’m going to need to subcontract it to them. And then I’m still making money on a guy that has the good fundamentals.

43:21
Robert
Or because, you know, you know they do because you help build them.

43:24
Jordan
Build them. Or they’re going to go do their own thing and they’re going to fall so flat on their face and they’re going to say, oh my God, this was the best opportunity I ever had. Was working for independent tree service. Can I please come back? And that’s what’s going to happen. They’re going to come back and work for you. It is so hard to leave the comfort of independent tree service where you magically have a job every day. Because I’m the one stifling my ulcer making sure that there’s work on the books, that you have your vacation, you have your paid, you got it all. Why would you want to leave? And it takes a set of balls to go out on your own.

43:59
Robert
And 3 inch diameter nuts making these.

44:02
Jordan
Look like cute ones, you know. But it takes a, a set of stones to do that. And not a lot of people have that gumption to do it well.

44:12
Robert
And, and then not only do you need the stones, you actually need the acumen because you actually have to do the things that the government needs you to do or you’re going to run out of money really quick because they’re going to come looking for it. Yeah.

44:20
Jordan
And it’s. So don’t.

44:21
Robert
And you got to be able to sell, you got to be able to deliver, you got to be able to train other people. All the things.

44:26
Jordan
Yeah. I wouldn’t be afraid of somebody leaving your business and doing it on their own. And if they do good for them, it’ll come back.

44:32
Robert
Yeah.

44:32
Jordan
And I just think, look at that accomplishment. You built somebody into a future business owner that’s going to employ more people and more jobs.

44:40
Robert
Good.

44:40
Jordan
That’s the best compliment ever. You just built a business owner. That’s badass.

44:46
Robert
That is badass. So for the record, five people in the history of intrigue have left to build their own businesses. And every single time we celebrated them with parties and we like wish them all the best and we all went and bought their shit because it’s just like, how cool is that? And so anybody listening to this, it’s like this abundance mindset you’re bringing to the show and helping people understand is like that’s where it’s at. And what’s really fascinating about what you say too is that like there’s a common theme in all the most successful people on the show. They all say that they’re a development company first. They happen to do landscaping or trees. They don’t say that they’re a tree company first. Like they are a training and development business.

45:24
Robert
They happen to do this line of work and they focus their entire approach on building people. And I think that’s just a beautiful sentiment and more people need to hear it. So I appreciate you talking about it. Okay. Few quick things before we go. You mentioned a shit ton of Google reviews. Tell us how you do it.

45:46
Jordan
So we have a lot of customers, maybe more so than a landscaper. If you’re a landscaper, you have maintenance customers. Well, it’s the same person over and over again. And if you do installs, you probably don’t do a pile of them. I will probably come across between five and 12 customers a day is what we’ll have on average. So I’m coming down 50 to, I don’t know, 50 customers a week. So I have a lot of exposure out there for a review. So what we do is when the crew leader gets there, they do a walkthrough with the customer, assuming they’re home. Here’s what we’re going to do. They do the job. When the job’s over, they knock on the door and this is residential.

46:29
Jordan
And if the homeowner’s home, they do a walk through and make sure everybody’s happy and they did a good job. Then we have a little door hanger with a QR code on it and it says the best compliment you can give us is a five star Google review. And there’s instructions on how to leave a Google review and a QR code. QR code. So if the crew leader is able to meet the homeowner in person, they will hold that card and they will ask them, hey, if we did a great job for you, it could you please give us my crew a five star review and list me, your crew leader, as, you know, the point person. And I intentionally wanted the reviews to be about my crew and crew leaders and not about me.

47:10
Jordan
I don’t want every Google review to say, Jordan Upcavage is a great arborist. What I want is the customer to say, wow, Curtis did a beautiful job on my trees. Sergio and crew were great. That’s what I want it on. And so, and if my guys are in front of the homeowner, sweaty with sawdust on their shoulders, oh my God, of course I’m going to leave you over you. You’re like asking, making eye contact with me. You’re a real person. I’ll do this for you. Sergio, you went and jerked off that azalea. That wasn’t in the work order for me. Yeah, I’ll give you five stars. That’s the enzyme. You make it personable. And then if they’re not home, we leave the door hanger on the door. But that’s cold. That’s not personable, that’s not eye contact, that’s not sweat. Okay.

47:55
Jordan
If I just have automated emails, you know, three days after the invoice, if we did a great job, leave us a review. That’s horseshit. That’s a cold email. So the crew leaders ask for it. I do a follow up call with every customer the day after the job was done. Okay. We do a follow up call before we send the invoice. Right. I want to make sure we did a good job and then I ask for the Google review. So we hit them with the door hanger or the crew leader. I hit them over the phone when I do the follow up and then when we invoice them via email, okay, I know we did a good job. We fixed any of the screw ups, right?

48:31
Jordan
When they get the invoice, it asks for a review again with a link in the invoice email for the third time. That’s how we get them.

48:39
Robert
And for the record, what are we talking about here in terms of numbers? Just so that we’re all talking the same language here. Independent tree service Tampa, Florida.

48:51
Jordan
Yeah.

48:52
Robert
595 Google reviews, five star rating. We’re talking and so we’re talking about $4 million company you’re dealing with. Call it 500 customers a year.

49:06
Jordan
Ish, I don’t know.

49:08
Robert
Well, you said 50 a week.

49:10
Jordan
Sure.

49:12
Robert
595 Google reviews. Anybody listening? If you deal with a hundred customers a year and you don’t have 100 Google reviews, you’re missing out. Now if I look at tree service Tampa, which for the record, you did make our job a bit easier. Helping you get leads by doing this. You’ve got Tampa tree service. Nothing against them. 72 Google reviews. Sunrise 183. That’s legit. Oh. Independent. 595 Google reviews, five star rating. You can’t.

49:48
Jordan
You’re gonna pay 50 bucks for that. Legendary. Right there.

49:51
Robert
All day, every day.

49:53
Jordan
Yes.

49:54
Robert
So, okay, now, selfish question. We built your website. How long did it take?

50:00
Jordan
Oh man. Say we talked about it on Monday and it was up on Friday. It could have been four days, maybe it was seven, less than 10.

50:13
Robert
And so if anybody wants to check it out, independent treeservice.com so you can see like the quality of what was involved. Anyway, I, I, so nobody believes me when I tell them this. So I think we’re actually gonna start telling people. It takes two weeks, maybe even a month so they believe us. And I don’t get it. I, I don’t get the opportunity to talk to a customer on here all the time. Like we’re trying to get them on, but like they’re, you know, we planned this a while ago, whatever.

50:34
Jordan
So I appreciate it. Why do websites take so freaking long by everybody else?

50:40
Robert
Well, I mean, I could tell you. I can tell you.

50:45
Jordan
You just push the buttons.

50:48
Robert
Yeah. Or you invest, you know, hundreds of dollars technology to make it so that it works properly. But, you know, different stories for different folks, whatever.

50:55
Jordan
You know, $100,000. Nuts, man. Save your time. Same thing.

51:02
Robert
Anyway, I appreciate you. Like nothing else, man. It’s been a. A pleasure and honor to meet you and Jason Greenside, podcast independent service. Where are you going next? So you got. Are you doing Georgia? You gonna do with Southeast Green?

51:17
Jordan
No, June, but I don’t know where I’m going. I know that in June I’ll be at Trees Florida in Palm Coast. That’s the isa, you know, International Society of Arboriculture, Florida chapter. So the arborist of Florida is in Palm coast, which is kind of by St. Augustine on the east side of the state. This June, I’m going to be there. As far as podcast, the next event that we do, I have no idea what landscape show.

51:46
Robert
Orlando, maybe.

51:47
Jordan
Maybe. What month is it?

51:49
Robert
I’m just trying to figure out how I can have a drink with you in a parking lot at 1am that’s pretty easy, man. Respectfully.

51:57
Jordan
Respectfully, yeah. Whether I’m there podcasting or not, I can just come over to Orlando and dick off with you.

52:05
Robert
Before let you go. One inspiration, like author, speaker, someone that you look up to, mentor. Maybe someone should check out.

52:18
Jordan
Here we go. I’m not that well read. I hate reading. I mean, I like watching movies. My favorite movie is Blazing Saddles. That’s my level of intellect here. So I have no wonderful quote by whoever the hell’s a famous author. But what I will say is I told you earlier that as a kid I emulated my dad, right. I always put him on a pedestal. He was like a hero to me. One of the things he told my buddy Jason in business, he goes, jason, business is not that hard. It’s pretty easy if you think about it. If you’re not making enough money, just charge more. And if you think about what we’ve talked about on the value of you, in a way it’s the same thing. I wasn’t making enough money, so I just charged more.

53:11
Jordan
Now in business, working for customers before I invest my time, I’m taking your money, right. I’m charging you more. I’m charging you more upfront to vet you. So it’s just a simple philosophy, and.

53:24
Robert
That’S one with one caveat, that you have to be good.

53:28
Jordan
If not, you got to be excellent and you have to be ethical. And you.

53:34
Robert
And like. And how much do you think the education that you bring to somebody in a 50 service call is actually worth for an hour? Like 500 bucks.

53:42
Jordan
Oh, I save people so much money because I decrease the scope of work often. I often have this huge idea and I dial it back on what they really need because what they think they need is not warranted or it makes the problem worse.

53:59
Robert
Yeah, that’s cool, man.

53:59
Jordan
And then I gotta custom forever.

54:01
Robert
Well, it’s like price versus so like, if you take value minus price, you have goodwill or customer surplus. Right. This idea of like, if the value of what you deliver exceeds the price with which you deliver it from the perspective of the customer, you’re in a position where you’re building goodwill and more than likely a referral opportunity. And so I love the idea of charging more and more, pushing yourself to better at delivering great value. And I think with everything you’ve said in the way that you guys operate, from 50 bucks for a consult to crew leaders asking for reviews, to you following up personally to make sure that everything’s been cleaned up to the invoice being sent after everything’s good to go, you guys are just doing a great job of delivering well.

54:48
Jordan
Isn’t that how you would want your experience to be?

54:52
Robert
Yeah, I mean, it’s better than what I thought. I wanted to be honest. To be quite honest.

54:56
Jordan
Yeah. So exactly. Boom. Simple.

54:59
Robert
Yeah. Appreciate you, man.

55:01
Jordan
Cool.

55:02
Robert
Thanks everybody. Listening to another episode of the I’m Landscape Growth podcast. Stay tuned for the next one.