Released: August 8, 2023
The inaugural episode of the IM Landscape Growth Podcast features Jake DeJong, a seasoned entrepreneur and business coach, discussing his journey from landscaping to leadership. He shares valuable insights on growth, HR strategies, and the importance of aligning business practices with personal values.
“Leadership is about adding value to others, and people will follow you. It’s about serving, and if you can help people get what they want, they will help you get what you want.”
– Jake DeJong
Here’s what we discuss in today’s episode:
- The transition from business owner to industry consultant.
- Key growth constraints in the landscaping industry and strategies to overcome them.
- The importance of mindset, branding, and customer engagement in scaling a business.
Actionable Key Takeaways:
- Embrace Horizontal Growth: Recognize that not every employee desires or needs vertical career growth. Some may find fulfillment and perform best in their current roles without additional leadership responsibilities.
- Cultivate a Purpose-Driven Culture: Build and maintain a company culture based on core values and a clear purpose, ensuring these are not just stated but actively lived out within the organization.
- Implement a Structured Recruitment Strategy: Develop and maintain a structured approach to recruitment that focuses on both the needs of the business and the qualities of potential employees, emphasizing cultural fit and long-term growth.
- Invest in People Development: Regularly invest in training and developing your team, focusing on both skills and personal growth to ensure alignment with business goals and personal aspirations.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- “Awesomely Simple” by John Spence
- “21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership” by John C Maxwell
If you liked this episode, please rate and review us on your favourite podcast platform, and be sure to hit the subscribe button!
Episode Transcript
Robert
00:00
All right, we’re kicking off the pilot program for the IAM landscaping Growth podcast, and I have the pleasure of doing so with an amazing business coach and all around awesome entrepreneur, Jake DeYoung. Thanks for joining us, man.
Jake
00:18
Yeah, thanks for having me. Very, very appreciate the opportunity, man. Yeah.
Robert
00:22
Sweet. So we’ve done a bunch of podcasts, landscapers, entrepreneurs. For years I drove around with entrepreneurs. I’m not sure if you ever saw any of those things. I’m in a car. Did you see any of those?
Jake
00:30
I didn’t, but now I will.
Robert
00:32
Don’t worry, you didn’t miss much. So it’s all coming to this precipice of really focusing on a common thing across all entrepreneurs, leadership, for sure, and then specifically getting into landscape industry and all the nuances that come along with that. But at the end of the day, growing a business comes down to some core fundamental principles. And I hope we can spend some time today exploring that from your perspective. And I know you’ve had a chance to work with businesses of all shapes and sizes. As we just jump into this, maybe you can give the audience a quick little rundown of kind of where you’ve come from and where you’re at right now.
Jake
01:06
Yeah, it’s great. I do really appreciate the opportunity. Yeah. Basically, I was born and raised in Denville, Ontario, so went to a great school, and then when I was done grade twelve, we moved to Hamilton, my family did, and then I went to McMaster University. So I got a degree in economics and political science and then started my career actually in landscaping as well. So I was pretty pumped about that.
Robert
01:34
You actually did the work?
Jake
01:35
I did.
Robert
01:36
I was shut the front door.
Jake
01:38
I was at McMaster.
Robert
01:39
And basically that’s where the physique came from. I could, whenever we meet in person, I was like, how does a business coach have, like, a little bit of jackness going on? Anyway. Okay, that’s cool.
Jake
01:46
Yeah. So I basically, when I started in university, I always looked at my schedule and thought, how can I pick my electives in such a way that I can work three days a week to kind of support myself through school? So I guess I’ve maybe picked some funky electives to kind of get there. But I worked quite a bit landscaping and then, yeah, I graduated and I was given the great opportunity to kind of marry my wife at a young age as well, too. So I married at the age I just turned 21. My wife was 19. So you’re quite young, and then it just meant your career mattered at that point, right? So started working for a landscaping company for about five years, and it was great experience because it allowed me to understand kind of project management, estimating finance, client relationships.
Jake
02:32
Like, I’m not too mechanical in the sense of I got two left hands, but just kind of understanding how business works. And as I was kind of going through that career, which was such a great experience, we grew quite a bit. I was kind of looking at being on the business. And throughout that time that I was there as well, I went to McMaster again for human resource management at night. So it was kind of an accomplishment. We were blessed with two kids at that time, so we’re kind of doing, like, Wednesday nights, Thursday nights, and Saturday mornings. And it took me about two and a half years to get there and pretty thankful for that. So from there, I kind of moved to a general contracting firm, which was a pretty big company. And that’s actually where I met my mentor.
Jake
03:16
His name is Dennis Concordia. He’s actually the founder of power group Resources and really thankful for that relationship as well. He kind of taught me the ropes about HR, gave me the insight. Give me all those sayings that when you’re saying them to someone else, you’re like, that’s. That’s exactly what Dennis said to me. So I’m pretty grateful to him for that. And then from there, moved to another waste management company for about four years and led a transition there as well. It kind of doubled or tripled in size and in the course of a few years. So from an HR point of view, it’s always super exciting growth, but it’s also super painful. Right. So I was kind of able to learn a lot through there and just kind of develop and grow a team to kind of be sustainable. Right.
Jake
04:04
So that was really neat. And then I had that entrepreneurial itch. I was like, you know what? I really kind of want to do this with small to medium sized businesses. I really kind of enjoyed walking alongside of people, and I was really thankful because the person that I had worked for, I said, hey, this is kind of what I’m feeling. And he said, oh, I want to support you in that. So actually, my employer became my first client, which was a huge blessing to me. Right. Because I was able to kind of build off of that in a very short order. So then from there started, you know, the knees were shaking, the hands were shaking, and the voice jump off a.
Robert
04:43
Cliff and plane on the way down.
Jake
04:45
Yeah, exactly. You know what? High stakes a little bit. Right? We have five kids, and you got to make sure you’re making the right decision.
Robert
04:53
All by choice, too, from what I hear.
Jake
04:56
Yeah, you know what? We love our kids.
Robert
04:57
Crazy.
Jake
04:58
Yeah, they range.
Robert
04:59
They do, too, but they’re still crazy.
Jake
05:00
Yeah, they range from three to 13. So in ten years time. So it’s pretty neat to see all kind of phases. So then I just kind of started doing my thing in terms of coming at it from an approach of business strategy, really kind of holding people accountable, people who are kind of struggling in the realm of HR. So I would classify myself as a business consultant first, but secondary kind of skill set is an HR. So when people are kind of worried about performance reviews or tough conversations or how to hold each other accountable, I kind of don’t believe in elephants in the room. I just clearly talking through them and kind of working through them. And, yeah, it’s kind of been my skillset, and I’ve been really grateful for that.
Jake
05:42
So then as time has went on, it’s just word kind of got out, and I was pretty grateful for that. And then I started a company called works recruiting in 2021 because as I was doing consulting for people, they were kind of talking about positions that needed to be filled, maybe positions that needed to be replaced, unfortunately. And then growth plans usually need to be realized by people. And so at that point, I was kind of like, okay, if I continue the brand of power group resources that way, then, yeah, I was the brand at that time. So I was just looking to build a few additional resources or additional names outside of that consulting because I didn’t want to be confused as the hiring guy. I wanted to differentiate myself very clearly and concisely.
Jake
06:30
So as we started that in 2021, we got a phenomenal GM right now that kind of runs that. We were kind of quickly challenged in the market, which is, as you know, it’s not that easy to find really good people. And so we’re kind of working through those. We worked through those challenges. We also really dove into the foreign market as well, just to bring people across the border, just to kind of help in some of those entry level roles and kind of labor type roles because it was just impossible to turn over. Yeah, just kind of the pain of hiring and things like that. We were able to kind of invest in a solution that was at least a solution. Right. As opposed to kind of just complaining. Yeah. Hanging the head against the wall. So that’s been working out really well.
Jake
07:20
And then in addition to that, in 2023 and March, this past March, we started integer accounting and bookkeeping. So we’re working with kind of our clients. We had a partner come on board. His name’s Justin, and he’s doing a great job in the sense of providing clarity around numbers, around budgets, around financial statements, because my Bailiwick, so to speak, is with small to medium sized businesses, and they just need resources to help them. And I think for us, it’s really important to build resources for small to medium sized businesses to enact the strategy that they have. Right.
Jake
07:58
So we’ve got the hiring, we’ve got the kind of the HR, we’ve got the bookkeeping, and then next we’re focusing on some grant writing and so on and so forth, so that we’re able to kind of walk alongside of owners and really kind of help them enable the strategy. Otherwise, it’s a little bit overwhelming. You can come up with a strategy and you say, okay, well, I don’t have time to do it. Yeah, we’re able to kind of create those resources for them. We didn’t want to be that consulting firm that just came in and said, you should do this and you should do that and see it in three months.
Robert
08:30
Good luck. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it’s really neat, though, right? Because if you think about it, like, how many businesses start with somebody who’s an HR expert and they grow a company?
Jake
08:37
It’s like nobody.
Robert
08:38
Unless you’re an HR recruiting firm, maybe that happens. Or how many people do you see as, like, bookkeepers and accountants start a trades business? It’s like few and far between, if zero, I find mostly, and you probably see this all the time, they’re either really good at selling what they do or they’re really good at doing what they do, and then they create that. They’re in this boat that’s creating this huge wake that needs to be sorted. And HR and finance is huge functions in order to keep the ship in the right.
Jake
09:04
Absolutely. And it’s just about creating that roadmap. Right? Like, I think no one gets up in the morning and they’re like, oh, I can’t wait to figure out health and safety or HR or my numbers. They don’t really do that. They do it because they fall in love with, like, the passion of what they’re doing and the mission of where they’re going. And it’s usually kind of product based or service based, and we’re just kind of able to help them along in that category. And usually people cringe when I mention all the topics that I, you’re like, don’t worry.
Robert
09:32
I’m going to take care of it for you, which is cool. All right, sweet. So let’s jump into this. First of all, for all the people that are listening to this thing, I just want to make a confession. First and foremost, I do these for two reasons. One is, I think it’s really important that people understand what’s going on and hear from experts in the industry, and that’s all industries. And so thank you for doing this, Jake. But second, from a very selfish perspective, it’s like a 1 hour unpaid consulting gig. So I just get to ask questions, listen to experts, and then hopefully a whole bunch of other people get to listen, too. So I just want to put that out there. Cause I’m trying to get out of this as much as the audience would be.
Robert
10:06
So I know we’re gonna talk about a couple of key things. Leadership and how to grow and become successful in an organization between the ears in order to make it happen in reality. And then also, we’re gonna talk a little bit about cancellation, or we’re gonna talk about recruitment and understanding, like, how can we better recruit, find these people, whether it’s foreign market best practices, that kind of stuff. So we’re gonna touch on those. Before we get into it, though, I got to tell you, very few people have I interviewed, and, you know, thousands. I’ve interviewed thousands of people, whether it’s a sales conversation or driving around in a car or doing a podcast, it’s more than a thousand people. You said, appreciate, blessing, gratitude, and grateful more than any other word while speaking. Can you just shed some light on that perspective?
Jake
10:54
Yeah, sometimes it might sound overused, but it’s.
Robert
10:58
No, not at all.
Jake
10:59
It’s part of my vocabulary because I think I’ve used words like walking alongside of and serving hearts, and that’s kind of what we want. And that’s kind of who I am. I want to kind of walk alongside of people. I want to be able to serve people, and I’ve done so in many community functions as well. And I just have this philosophy that if you give more, you get more. And I think sometimes people will go into, yeah, maybe like, networking events, and they’re like, well, how much can I get? What are the leads? And so on and so forth. And I understand that to a certain degree, but just kind of giving of yourself is very fulfilling. And that is why I use those words, because I genuinely do feel very blessed and very thankful.
Jake
11:44
And sometimes when people will ask, are you busy or what you got going on? I always say, I’m blessed, I’m good, I’m thankful, right. Sometimes people can be unregulated and they can say I’m swamped or I can’t, you know, I don’t have enough people, and I just look at people and business and challenges, just an opportunity. I’ve always looked at it that way, and those are truths that I’m thankful for too, because otherwise, you know, sometimes you kind of have that hair on fire, you go a little bit squirrely at times, but truly I’ve just been blessed. So that’s kind of why I utilize that.
Robert
12:18
I just think it’s brilliant and often overlooked if you look at even just where we wake up every single day, first of all on the right side of the ground, that’s helpful. But then you look at the fresh water, we have access to, the environment we’re in, it can be pretty easy to fall into a trap where we’re just buried in the day to day instead of taking our head up. And I just really appreciate the fact that you’re bringing that to light, even if it’s just passively through the vocabulary you’re using and the way you approach things. I think it’s really important for everybody to maybe take a page out of that book. Okay, random trivia, what is the plural of Oasis without googling it?
Jake
12:57
Oh, I want to say Oasis is, but that doesn’t sound, I thought the.
Robert
13:00
Same thing, it’s Oasis. I don’t know if you remember Oasis in like, you know, high school, I’m not sure if you’re that old. I am so, grade 13, oasis. Oasis, multiple plural of oasis? Oasis random. Random, okay, I digress. So, human resources recruiting people are tough to find. If you look at a growth constraint 1012 years ago, sales, number one growth constraint, need more customers, last three years without a doubt, and it’s repetitive and it’s unanimous, it’s people. Where there’s all these talks about recessions and usually they lead to unemployment. Not the case. Unemployment’s an all time low, finding people super tough, it’s across the board, it’s like industry agnostic, maybe a bit of tech sector has lightened up a little bit with all the layouts that happen in the last twelve months.
Jake
13:51
Yeah.
Robert
13:52
So what’s going on from your end? What are you seeing working? How can we help some folks figure out how to get their recruitment on a bit better?
Jake
13:59
I think the challenge always comes in, what can you control and what can’t you control? Right, so for instance, sometimes when people hire people, they tend to look at them as a little bit of a flip of the switch. They’re like, okay, they should be able to produce these landscapes or they should be able to do these services, but kind of focusing organically from within is really, really important, I guess, as you start to build your organization, even in addition to recruitment, because sometimes there are people that have been with you for a long time that just need to have those conversations and those roadmaps drawn out so that maybe they are capable of being that lead hand, or maybe the owner has to put a little bit more investment into having conversations that they’re not used to having.
Jake
14:43
And that’s certainly within side the owner’s control to be able to do that and really see what their potential is from within. And I’ve always encouraged that. It would be easy to kind of keep saying that’s higher and higher, but that’s the best area to start. And then also kind of focusing onboarding and sitting down and saying, here’s your roadmap. We’ve been doing that for a number of clients and drafting out roadmaps and every three months. And how are we doing? And you know what? I’ve noticed you’re off in this category. How do we get that better? Those types of conversations are really important to kind of develop from within. In addition to that, sometimes people look at hiring in such a negative sense, and it can be, it’s a huge time drain. It’s an energy vampire.
Jake
15:25
A client of mine likes to use that term, whom I love. And. Yeah, so he, you know, sometimes there’s just so much energy going into that, and people are just done. Right. And so we can look at recruitment as a negative, or we can say it’s a necessary thing to do. I’ve kind of, you know, we have three models, one being a retainer search. It’s just one of those things. If you’re not fishing, you’re never going to catch a fish, right?
Robert
15:50
No doubt.
Jake
15:51
Yeah.
Robert
15:51
That’s science. I don’t know if anybody caught that, but if you’re not fishing, you’re not going to catch a fish.
Jake
15:56
That’s right.
Robert
15:56
I mean, someone might jump in your boat, and that can happen, but it’s rare. And that’s called a strategy based on hope. And that, last time I checked, isn’t a good strategy.
Jake
16:05
No. So, sometimes people look at. Indeed, and they look at these things as a. As an unnecessary cost. But as soon as you realize one or two great hires, the cost of that just goes away. Right. You’re like, oh, yeah, I’d pay 5000 or 10,000 for a person to be able to kind of realize my goals and so on and so forth. So we have a retainer search model that people enjoy because we’re always kind of fishing on their behalf and doing. We do like the screening. We create the ad. We do all the screening. We present the candidates.
Jake
16:35
And there’s just an element of effort there that goes in on both sides because if the owner is so busy and it’s not mirror and matching kind of the energy on our end or whatever, then they say, I’ll get to that next week. It doesn’t work that way anymore. You kind of got to, you got to match the energy that’s being given off by the candidates. So we kind of do that recruitment retainer model, which we really enjoy. Also, people kind of come in for the kind of hiring project, a one off. They just want to get to know you a little bit. In which case we do like a lot of passive and active recruiting as well. Like reverse searching and finding the candidate that maybe doesn’t know that they want to be part of your organization just yet.
Robert
17:18
What’s reverse searching, though, mean? Just so the people listening have a sense of what you’re talking about?
Jake
17:22
Yep. So, like through, indeed and through LinkedIn, we’re just actively looking for candidates that were driving towards the ad. So we’re kind of looking at them even though they’re not looking at us. And so just driving them to it. And we do that a fair bit on a hiring project basis. And that’s worked out really well. And kind of the last one, like I mentioned, is just the foreign market. Like, you laughed when you said, well, you can’t complain anymore. But it is true, like laborers and those entry level roles, you can spend tens of thousands of dollars every year on frustration, indeed, all that type of stuff. And so I’ve just encouraged people to, hey, just press pause for a minute, maybe do something intentionally different. And there’s a cost, there’s certainly a cost to bringing them over.
Jake
18:13
But when you realize predictable manpower, it’s a huge blessing as well. It allows you to plan, it allows you to scale, it allows you to do all these things.
Robert
18:23
And they want to show up and.
Jake
18:25
They want to work and they want to, and they’re so thankful to you. Right? Like we have staff that have come over from the Philippines and they’re just working hard for their family and they’ve got all the right values and principles in place sometimes. I don’t know what it is about today’s culture, but it just, the entry level role just seems to maybe be a little bit of an entitlement where they don’t really want to do those things. They want to jump into the middle management right away. So, so we need to kind of look at things and pause and reflect. And I’ve kind of encouraged a lot of people on that path as well because predictable manpower, like I said, is something that is planned and can be scaled. Right.
Robert
19:04
Okay. It’s the number one problem. So if someone wants to reach out and say, hey, I want some folks, how do I get, how do I participate in this program?
Jake
19:12
Quick, what do they do in the foreign worker program?
Robert
19:14
Yeah.
Jake
19:15
Yeah. So just high level. It certainly takes about nine to twelve months, I would say, to kind of bring people over. So it’s, it’s one of those.
Robert
19:23
Started now for next year.
Jake
19:24
That’s right. Exactly. It’s one of those strategies where you have to like be intentional for next year. And so you got to get out of the day to day and you got to say, I’m going to do something different and it’s going to take till next year. So they move forward and we go through this process called an LMIA and we basically prove, but I mean, I’m.
Robert
19:41
Just saying simplify the crap out of it. How do they do that with you?
Jake
19:45
Right on. So we basically handle the whole process.
Robert
19:48
But how do they contact you? How do I get them to find you and say, jake, help me?
Jake
19:53
We have a website, obviously. We’ve got a phone number, email. Yeah. So it’s just, it’s. Worksrecruiting.com.
Robert
20:01
Worksrecruiting.com.
Jake
20:02
Yep. And then my email is Jake, J k [email protected]. Worksrecruiting with an s or a z? With a Zed.
Robert
20:10
Worksrecruiting.com. With a Zed.
Jake
20:13
That’s right.
Robert
20:14
Sweet. I mean, if anybody’s looking at growing into next year and trying to find predictable labor, I mean, this, from my perspective is game changer. So I think you really went on your way to find something to truly serve an industry. And it’s just awesome, man.
Jake
20:29
Yeah. Thanks. Appreciate that.
Robert
20:31
Sweet. So you’ve got these three different models that you can help people with. At the end of the day, you’re looking at being intentional with how you can do things differently using tools like reverse search, especially things on like LinkedIn. One of the things I’m just curious to get your take on this. We have a couple of philosophies that we work with ourselves at intrigue, but also with clients, and one of them is a, players are on the ice. If someone is unemployed, it’s typically for a reason, whether they want to be or they don’t want to be. Debatable. But what’s your take on recruiting from other organizations or trying to find people who are employed?
Jake
21:11
Yeah, great question. I mean, kind of the term sometimes uses poaching, right?
Robert
21:17
Like, sometimes people think that.
Jake
21:18
Yeah, yeah, totally. I think for us, like, we don’t want to saturate the markets either. Right. We want to work with clients that. I think intrigue does a little bit of that, too. Or you have a certain amount of clients per geography and exclusive rights that way. Certainly when we’re reviewing competition or call, like, we direct them, we don’t know who they are, but some. Some clients are quite direct about that. They. They kind of say, hey, you know what? Like, we don’t like poaching, but if you can find the guy on the ice, that would be great. So it’s a little bit of a conflict at times. Right. And. Yeah. So from our vantage point, we typically will just direct people through LinkedIn, people who have put their.
Jake
21:57
Their resumes like, they’ve shinied them up a little bit in the past 30 days or 60 days. They’re on the market. They just don’t know whether they’re on the market for whoever we’re hiring for, if you know what I mean. So.
Robert
22:10
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Jake
22:11
We’re kind of following their lead a little bit. Just, I’ve seen a bunch of on LinkedIn, or you’ve got open to work, you’ve got people that are putting little tell signs out there that are saying, hey, you know what? We don’t know, but we’re kind of ready. So that’s kind of what we focus on. I’m not a huge person that let’s snag the competition, because at the end of the day, that comes with a whole whack of things as well, too. Right. And I’d rather hire someone, like, completely capable on the attitude side, that fits the values of the organization, that fits the culture, and then just take off and train the skill and focus in that area first. I mean, you kind of hear that saying, right? Higher attitude, trained skill. Yeah, I think that’s kind of where we find ourselves right now.
Jake
22:56
Right. So it’s really like a culture fit more than anything. And then I think the rest relies on the owner to kind of hold them accountable to the career roadmap that they’ve set out. So I don’t know if that answers your question or not.
Robert
23:08
No, I mean, it’s part of it for sure. And then the other part that wanted to just kind of, like, touch on is this. Do you see landscaping trades, whatever it is, where some people are always looking inside the industry? Are there, like, complementary industries that maybe you can look towards and maybe give some people some aha. Thoughts around? Like, you know what? That might not be the same, but it’s close. Like, you might be able to grab somebody that’s been working at a greenhouse during their university career and then maybe bring them into landscaping. You know, in our case, we find a lot of parallels between hospitality. Cause we’re, like, very customer service driven.
Robert
23:44
So somebody who’s been working and trained at, say, like the keg as an example, has an opportunity to come over into a digital marketing space because they’ve been trained on attitude and service, and then we can go train the skill and knowledge around digital marketing. Is there any kind of commonalities you’ve seen cross industry into something else?
Jake
24:00
Yeah, it’s an interesting point. I think, for something like landscaping just to zero in on that industry, I think it’s that 20 to 35 year old bracket that seemed to kind of be the ones that fit, and then they usually start talking about supervisory roles or, and they’re hurting back. My knees are hurting and all that stuff. Right. So one thing that we’ve kind of done is tried to get in early. Right. So in the high schools, that’s what we’ve been focusing on as well, too, because I don’t know if you were to tell a grade ten kid, hey, you know what? You can actually make $80 to $90,000 landscaping. I don’t think that’s a truth that’s really well known out there. Right. I think trades have tremendous value, and you kind of got to get ahead of them. Excuse me?
Jake
24:43
You got to get ahead of it well beforehand. Right. Because they pick a path of college or university, and then they’re just not aware of the value of those trades. Right. So we’ve been doing a fair bit of that. But certainly there are some industries, like I see landscapers actually going into. Once they hit the age of 30 to 35, they kind of go into excavating and more machine work. Right?
Robert
25:05
Sure. Yeah.
Jake
25:06
Their body and stuff like that. But I think the prime time is like, ages 18 to 35 and just having a good program. And again, that’s kind of where that retainer searches. You’re always kind of investigating those types of strategies and. And always kind of getting ahead of getting in that age bracket, so to speak. So it’s kind of very cool.
Robert
25:27
You touched on the idea of culture and, like, hiring somebody with good attitude and, you know, higher attitude training skill. Can you just speak to an organization’s advantage, or lack thereof, if they’re purpose driven? Values driven, like a company who has a defined purpose, that is living it on a regular basis. A company who’s got core values that’s bringing them to life. You know, that if you were to call them and someone answered the phone, you said, hey, what are your core values? They could probably rhyme off 80% of them. Is there an advantage to that? Like, we find a lot of people, they’re like, yeah, you know, we’ve got our core values. They’re on a poster in the boardroom that no one’s in anymore, ever.
Robert
26:05
I can’t remember exactly what they are, but I think I can write them off as the owner, and they don’t really get the credence that I think they might deserve. But I’m just trying to get a sense from your experience, like, do you see the advantage, like, the payoff of putting that time in and living in an organizational setting where core values are alive and purpose is, you know, spoken about, so.
Jake
26:26
Absolutely. But, I mean, I think. I think that process of defining what you’re all about and where you’re going is actually helpful when you’re trying to explain to them where they’re going. Right. So, for instance, like, when you’re, if I’m interviewing you can’t see the values that are written on my wall, but you will see the values in how I talk to you and how I engage with you. And so really, that gatekeeper is the one that actually displays those values as well, too. And I think that’s pretty critical. And having them come in and being a part of something that’s purposely driven like you’ve used, you have to be very intentional about what’s Rob’s roadmap after three months? What do I expect after nine months? Where should you be at?
Jake
27:05
And I think that’s what excites people more than ever, just to show them that energy of investment and also show them through your values that you have on your wall that you are looking for reciprocation. If you invest in this individual, they’re going to invest back into you, and that energy gets, I kind of use that term mirror and matched. That’s what we have to do kind of as owners to focus on new hires that we have coming in. But certainly when things are together, sometimes you have candidates that are coming out of a frustrating environment, and that’s always hard. Right. Because you don’t know if they’re the frustration or their manager is actually the frustration. Right.
Jake
27:45
You always kind of got to contemplate where the pain is, but they’re always refreshed by standardization and kind of process and how you deal with clients and how you’re spoken to and things like that. Those things matter. And so in your delivery and in your attempt to kind of bring them in, they’ll see a lot that way, too. Right. And so I’ve seen a lot of people, and I deal with a lot of businesses that start from the ground up. Well, you know, kind of going from a to b requires that standardization in those processes and system because that makes people feel safe. Right.
Robert
28:18
Like it makes them feel, well, it creates consistency. Right. There is trust, inconsistency. I don’t necessarily need to like you, but if I know how you’re going to respond, I can trust you. That’s really important. And that creates, you know, an environment of psychological safety. I think that’s, you know, really, and.
Jake
28:33
I’ve seen things as well, where people will say, oh, I’m going to hear back from the company. And the company took a week, and they’re like, okay, yeah, I think you can come on board and, yeah, it should be good. And all that stuff. Well, that doesn’t create a sense of security.
Robert
28:47
I think we should maybe start some.
Jake
28:50
Time wondering what the values are then of that person. And that person represents the values of the company. And that’s why it’s, like, really important to kind of have that warm approach and kind of always be fishing that way with that type of cultural display, if you know what I mean.
Robert
29:04
Yeah, well, you got to live it. Right. Actions speak louder than words. I appreciate that a lot. So one last piece on the recruiting side, and I want to get into this. Between the years of success, letting people go.
Jake
29:15
Yeah.
Robert
29:15
Number one stumbling block, I’d say, for owners, as they’re starting to really grow, they’ve got somebody, they know they’re not good for the company. There’s a sense of loyalty. They want to have them turn the corner. They know they got to do it. They can’t bring themselves to it. How do you help people see it, deal with it? What do you say to that?
Jake
29:37
Yeah, great question. I mean, terminations is a part of the HR world, I guess you can say, but I think it all comes down to a proper narrative, and I don’t mean it in the sense of have words to catch them and so on and so forth. It’s about sitting down and saying, this is where we would like you to be. Let’s summarize this discussion and let’s keep working at that. And so kind of creating a performance improvement plan or a performance management plan that makes it super clear, because what happens is owners tend to dwell in the emotional category where they’re like, they served a lot of time and maybe, you know, things like that, but that’s not very objective. Right. And if you have a narrative or some sort of formula, that’s like, you know what? This is just not computing.
Jake
30:21
Like, we need this for the business. And, you know, this person’s not showing a level of intensity that’s needed or there’s a level of complacency that’s coming. Then. Then you know that it’s kind of a story that’s been built with a foregone conclusion. And I think people really struggle with that. And honestly, I’ve seen stories and I’ve been a part of stories where it’s good termination. You might think it sounds awful, but for some people, it’s given them a good kick and it’s given them opportunities to kind of work on themselves and work in other areas. And it’s been a real blessing for them, too.
Jake
30:55
It doesn’t seem like it at the time at all, but having that kind of performance management dialogue and that narrative and then kind of working your way through that, then gives you the clarity that you need to say, this is the right decision for the business. Because for myself, I kind of coach people to get like, is that emotional or is that objective? Right. Is it subjective? Right. And I kind of want to make it very clear that if these are the demands of the business, like, we can still have the values that we have, but we need to be very objective and directing very clear with people as to where we’re at. And sometimes a really cool author that I’ve followed is John Spence, is sometimes they self quit. Right.
Jake
31:39
Once you apply that accountability, like, hey, what is it that you need to do? He mentioned there’s four pieces of paper. I don’t know if I’ll get them. All right, what is it that you need to do? Second page being, what tools do you need from me in order to be successful. The third page being, what type of cool rewards would you like to see if you hit your goals? And then the last page is, well, what will happen if you hit or don’t hit your goals? And usually they write termination or whatever. And so it’s that level of accountability that just kind of drives that process out. Right.
Robert
32:09
Drives that result through and self driven, too. Like, that’s beautiful. And, like, I think that’s also a very cool area of opportunity for a lot of leaders where it’s amazing what happens if you ask the right questions instead of trying to give away the answers. You know, like, what do you want to do? What tools do you need? Instead of, like, here’s what you got to do, all that kind of stuff. Now, obviously there’s demands from the business, which is super important, but I think what you also said is a theme in kind of everything that you’re saying. Clarity really goes a long way with humans. And I find a lot of times people think they said things implicitly, but by definition didn’t say anything right.
Robert
32:45
And, you know, it’s amazing how in some cases you need to tell somebody 10,000 times what you said. And in other cases, when it has to do with career and that kind of stuff, you just got to say something once or not say something. It’ll stick for a long time. So clarity goes a long way.
Jake
33:00
I will say that sometimes people will ask because HR is kind of what I’ve done, they said, that must be awful and terminating, and it sucks. Right. I don’t get up in the morning and say, I can’t wait to start my day and do that. But once you’ve built a clear message, it’s actually kind of just a product of what’s been happening. Right. The only time I really don’t enjoy terminations, and I’ve had it once, maybe in my whole career, is when they have no idea about it.
Robert
33:29
That’s the worst.
Jake
33:30
Yeah.
Robert
33:31
And that’s the leader’s fault if you’re blindsided.
Jake
33:34
That’s right.
Robert
33:35
Yeah. And I think that’s one thing I’ve learned personally and try to share with folks when I can and whether it resonates or not to be determined. But, you know, if I look at somebody who’s not having a good time, they’re not happy and they’re, and if it goes on long enough, they’re not healthy. And I think my job as a leader is really, and I think others is really to make sure people in our organizational settings are happy and healthy.
Jake
33:59
Yeah, absolutely.
Robert
34:01
And if they’re not, let them. Let them free. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the other guys and Will Ferrell. Mark Wahlberg is like, crazy. He’s like, peacock’s gotta fly. And will Ferrell’s like, peacocks don’t fly, man. He’s like, shut up. But peacocks do have to fly and we gotta let people, you know, spread their wings. And if they can’t do here, that’s okay, but let’s just move on and let them find that opportunity instead of, like, trying to shield them from it and dragging it out.
Jake
34:28
One principle that I’ve always kind of subscribed to is you need to exit people as gently and as enthusiastically as you’ve interviewed them. As dumb as that sounds, right, because it sounds so punitive in a termination meeting, but you just need to kind of, you know, wish them all the best. And it’s not. It’s not anything other than these are the demands. And. And I think the demands of the business sometimes outgrow the person and sometimes the person outgrows the business potential. Right. And that’s why you have to be really aligned with where your staff is at, because if. If one or the other is out of sorts, then you’re either going to lose great people or you’re going to have to kind of get rid of C players and start rebuilding your team with AMD players. Right. So, big time.
Robert
35:10
That’s huge. And I know people can get a lot of help because you’ve done it on an ongoing, consistent basis for a long time. So that’s huge. Thanks for sharing that stuff. So then tell me a little bit about this leadership success. You know, more about between the ears, less maybe about just driving sales.
Jake
35:27
Right.
Robert
35:27
can you just tell me about the success mindset and kind of where you see the, you know, some of, like, some bright spots and some gaps as leaders grow their businesses and, you know, maybe some things that people should be mindful of as they’re going through that whole journey of, you know, five hundred k to ten million in revenue.
Jake
35:45
Yeah, no, for sure. I think just a couple of observations and I’m totally going off a whim here, but a couple of observations just being. I find that sometimes. Well, I know that owners have very high standards. Right. And sometimes there’s an element of frustration when it comes to why can’t that next person just do it the way that I would? Or why can’t they just respond to the email that I would? the same way I would, things like that. So they have super high standards, and I’m often kind of reminding people, of how a hockey team is made up. You and I are apparently, you know, we’re loser leaf fans and unfortunately. Right, rob? So that’s no good soccer for punishment.
Robert
36:24
What can I say?
Jake
36:25
But there’s like a top six and there’s a bottom six and there’s a top four and defensemen, you know, things like that. I think that’s just a truth that people have to really kind of wrap their minds around that. You know what? They have to try to serve the individual the best way that they can to get the most potential that they can. And sometimes you don’t want people that are going to be all Connor McDavid’s, it just won’t work, and the cap and things like that. Right. You want people that are roster players and depth players and so on and so forth. And sometimes entrepreneurs think that everyone wants vertical growth because that’s what they wanted. They wanted to kind of start their own business. They wanted to become the president and the CEO.
Jake
37:03
But the value of horizontal growth is such an amazing thing. And I just encourage owners to really dwell in that space a little bit, too, and see, hey, if you can get a lot out of that person in that space, and that’s all they want, there’s a reason why not everyone’s an entrepreneur, because they don’t want to handle the stress or the risk or so on and so forth. So that’s kind of a concept or a truth that really kind of encourage owners with, because it’s a lot of frustration that kind of comes through phone calls that I have with them and just kind of manage their expectations with regards to that.
Robert
37:34
So break that. Okay, cool. I’ll come back. Go for the other thing. I got it.
Jake
37:39
The other kind of concept is just accountability. If you’re, if you’re not disciplined and organized and trying to push your team, you can’t just stand in the sidelines and just say, well, why wouldn’t they do that? Or why can’t they do this? You need to kind of get ahead of them and be that strategic thinker that’s like five steps ahead of them just to help them and see them be successful. And I think sometimes owners struggle with that philosophy as well. They like the flip of the switch training where they just kind of want them to just produce the same way that I do. Right. And so just to be able to kind of be five steps ahead and project manage, project coordinate. Sounds like micromanagement.
Jake
38:15
And I think that’s where everyone’s like, well, I don’t want to micromanage, but it’s just about being organized. And that’s kind of a concept of that organization kind of growing from that one level to the next is that’s another truth, that you have to stay organized and be ahead of your guys so that you’re able to see them grow and be successful.
Robert
38:33
Yeah, that’s cool. I mean, you know, great coaches are always prepped and have their team, you know, sorted before they get into a locker room. Like, they’re not trying to figure it out while they’re in front of the group. And, you know, the, one of the things we’ve used and shared with some folks is that, like, when someone’s new, they need to be trained and modeled.
Jake
38:52
Right.
Robert
38:53
Then once they’ve been trained and modeled, they need to be supervised. Are you doing the training? Well, and I’m going to supervise you.
Jake
39:01
Right.
Robert
39:01
But once you’ve passed training and supervision. Okay, cool. Now I’m going to coach you. Now we’re going to have, you know, you’ve got ongoing random things that pop up because everything’s perfectly standardized. It’s fine. And I’ll help you by providing perspective as opposed to telling you what to do. Hopefully, we can use things like, what do you want to do? What does your intuition tell you? And we build our intuition and then we get to mentorship. Where do you want to go? What’s the next step, and how can I help you get there? And I think if people can wrap their heads around that idea of, like, you know, you do need to train and supervise. Like, it’s not micromanaging when they don’t know what to do. Yeah. So, but you mentioned the last section of that answer, this horizontal growth concept.
Robert
39:40
So can you just break that down quick? I think it’s really important, and I’m not sure if everybody quite got it.
Jake
39:44
Yeah, I think sometimes we assume people want to be where we’re at and we, and that’s a wrong, that’s a false logic. I think there are a lot of people that are like, you know what? They’re content in their role. They want to grow and expand in their skillset, but they don’t necessarily need that vertical growth. They’re okay with kind of growing themselves in an area, like. So, for instance, we would all think a laborer should become a foreman eventually, but sometimes the best laborers just want to be laborers because they don’t want that stress in their life. So sometimes you push that individual to say, well, of course this is what you want. It’s not always the case.
Jake
40:19
So you need to really kind of take a look at your staff and say, are they content, for instance, in the area of finance, are they content being a bookkeeper or should they be a controller or should they be a CFO? Some people are not destined for those areas, and that’s okay. And I think sometimes that’s like an internal fight because they just think how they think that the other individual should think the same way that the owner does.
Robert
40:43
Well, the whole world thinks the way I think.
Jake
40:45
Totally.
Robert
40:46
And anybody who doesn’t, it’s crazy.
Jake
40:48
Exactly. And so I just, I usually kind of encourage people just to take stock in that. And if you can, hey, shucks, if you got a phenomenal trimmer or something like that does shrubs and landscaping, but why should he be a construction farmer? And if he can make good money kind of making manicuring properties to it.
Robert
41:06
Satisfied the work, goes home proud, is pumped, can leave it at the door.
Jake
41:11
Exactly. So that’s kind of more the concept of just be intentional about pausing and reflecting there and try not to kind of create your ambition inside of other people, if that makes any sense.
Robert
41:22
Yeah, that’s cool. I mean, let people be who they are. There’s a great resource. You’ve probably heard of it first, break all the rules. Have you heard of this one?
Jake
41:31
No.
Robert
41:32
Buckingham. Buckingham. Anyway, changed my whole view on HR and pay banning is part of it. But theme throughout the whole thing is don’t work on what’s left out. Work on what’s left in. That’s hard enough.
Jake
41:51
Yeah.
Robert
41:52
And when we try to change or make someone something they’re not, it just causes a whole bunch of crap. And then there’s that Peter principle, right, where we promote people to incompetence. And so I think that horizontal growth aspect addresses a lot of that. I think it’s really cool.
Jake
42:09
And like, the other thing I think is when people are good at something, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to be good at the new business demand. And I think it’s easy to say, oh, that person’s organized, they should be the next project manager. Like, no, it just doesn’t work that way. Why don’t you just make sure you keep them there and have that steady growth and that profitable growth. Right. And just allow them to do their thing. Certainly there are people with ambition that kind of want to jump up into different categories, which is totally cool, but it’s not a foregone conclusion that because they’re successful in one area, that they’re going to be successful in the other area. Right?
Robert
42:43
So, big time. Okay, so close to wrapping it up question, how do you motivate somebody?
Jake
42:52
How do you motivate someone? I encourage people. I think sometimes when I look at when people work through issues or work through conflicts or work through hard conversations that they’re not wanting to have, I try to give them the courage to do those things. So I try to figure out what the root issue is and really dwell there. So I think sometimes what people do is they chase a lot of symptoms, right? Like that person’s late or that person had attitude. Well, those are symptoms. You can kind of chase those things, or you can kind of get to the heart of the issue and have a conversation with the individual and say, you’re not being accountable. So in terms of how I motivate people, I try to walk alongside of people and then just give them the courage to do the hard things.
Jake
43:35
And when you do the hard things and they’re the right things, they’re the most rewarding things. And so when you’re chasing symptoms and you kind of get your, I use the term hair on fire at times it just sucks and it’s not fulfilling. And I just kind of encourage people to do the right things even though they might be hard. So, yeah, that’s cool.
Robert
43:54
I mean, even in that, just stepping back and asking, what is this a symptom of? If you see a behavior showing up inside an organizational setting with a person that you’re not happy with, it’s like, well, what might behind this? Context creates a lot of understanding if we go there. So I think that’s really cool, man. All right, so a resource that you would recommend, book, podcast, author, speaker, whatever, something that you think is a kind of a must if someone wants to take it to the next level when it comes to leadership, business growth, you know, people, there’s a, there’s two books.
Jake
44:25
There’s a book by John Spence called Awesomely simple, and he’s got a really neat formula in there. And I guess the focus is on disciplined execution. And I think it’s easy to kind of, from an HR point of view, build policies, build business strategy, and all things like that. It’s the discipline execution that always fails. Right. And then the stat is that 90% of the people fail just because they’re not disciplined and accountable. So I really love that book, and it talks about a very simple formula, and I would encourage you guys to read that. And also, I’ve been working through with a number of management teams on John Maxwell’s 21 irrefutable laws of leadership. And I really enjoy that one because it’s so simple. It’s add value to others and serve them, and you will gain followers.
Jake
45:11
Sometimes people feel that leadership is wealth. It’s title. It’s all those things. That’s not what leadership is. It’s about adding value to others, and people will follow you. And so I think that book gives a ton of examples as to. And great questions, too. So as a management team, we’ll read nine pages. They’re very easy chapters and really kind of focused on areas that we all need to improve in. So those are kind of two resources that I’ve kind of learned to learn to love along the way.
Robert
45:39
Yeah, that’s cool. Leadership is influenced. Nothing more, nothing less, right?
Jake
45:42
Yeah.
Robert
45:43
21 laws.
Jake
45:44
Yeah.
Robert
45:44
It kicked me in the nuts with law of the mirror. Things are happening in your organization for one of two reasons. Either you’re modeling it or you’re accepting it. Yeah, that was because I was trying to figure out what the heck is going on with this team, and all of a sudden, I realized it was all my fault, and I had the power to do something about it, which was very enlightening, too.
Jake
46:03
Like, the first chapter is the law of the lid, right? And it just talks about if you can improve your own effectiveness, you actually, you get so much more out of people as well, too. So you have to be pretty self aware, and you got to have resources around you that are pointing things out to you so that you can kind of create more effectiveness to others as well. And then kind of the grid just allows you to be that much more. I think it was, there’s a graph there or whatever. It was like 700% more effective with others if you can just kind of understand what your capacity is and where you need to grow. And then the law of addition is my favorite. Just kind of adding values to others, and I think that’s what we’re called to do.
Robert
46:41
That’s awesome, man. Well, thanks again for doing this. Again, if someone wants to reach out, we’re looking at. You’ve got worksrecruiting.com dot. So [email protected] foreign worker or the recruitment model or a one time hire or the foreign labor model and then LinkedIn website. Where do you want people to go to check you out if they’re looking for some help.
Jake
47:06
Yeah, the website, I mean, just a reminder, works. Recruiting is with the z. We tried to make it RZ, however you say it, but tried to make it a little bit trendy that way. So, yeah, we’re. We’ve got all of our information there, and just if people want to chat, be totally willing to do that and explore for us, we’re just looking for good partners. We’re not really looking for high volume. We just want to look with people that we can grow and kind of add value to their organization as well.
Robert
47:31
Right.
Jake
47:31
So, cool.
Robert
47:31
And what kind of situation would someone be in? That would be kind of prime spot for you to help grow, just to give kind of a bit of an overview, understanding. So someone might say, hey, that does sound like me.
Jake
47:39
Yeah, for sure. I think it’s just when people are frustrated with manpower and they’re kind of at the point where they just want to develop a recruitment strategy and they just want to do something a little bit different or, you know, what are the options? Maybe that curiosity stage, I guess we can call it, when they’re just clearly at a level where they have the demand, they want to pursue balance in their own life. They’re just at a turning point where they’re like, we just need some help, you know, doing fishing or trying to build our team. That’s really what we want to do at works recruiting. It’s not product based. It’s more kind of adding value to your team. Right. And building your team. Because when you do that, you’re able to kind of realize new goals and all things like that.
Jake
48:21
So when people are at that turning point where they’re looking for help to grow and to gain balance in their life and honestly want to kind of alleviate that time burden, then we’d be happy to kind of help out. So it’s pretty fun. Cool.
Robert
48:36
So if you’re doing the same thing and expecting different results, talk to Jake. Go to worksrecruiting.com. Works with a z or a z, depending on how you say it. All right, thanks again, man. Really appreciate you doing this, and thanks, everybody, for tuning in.
Jake
48:48
All right, take care, guys.