Darren Oostdyk: Scaling Doverscape to $2M With Just Four Employees

Rob Murray (00:31)
this.

Hi everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the I am landscape growth podcast. have an awesome entrepreneur guest today. Darren Oostdyk Thanks so much for doing this. he’s the founder and owner of Doverscape design and build.

Darren (00:45)
Yeah. Thanks for having me,

Rob Murray (00:47)
⁓ you know, we had, we had an opportunity to meet a few years back and, you know, we started working together and to hear kind of how your year’s going now, I think as a Testament to a lot of things, a lot of other guests speak to, so I’m pumped. I think there’s a lot of people listening that are where you were and want to get to where you are and probably want to do it in the same timeframe that you’ve done it. and even just talking before the call, I think there’s just some really.

practical things, people can start thinking maybe a little different and acting pretty different pretty quickly if they, you know, take what you have to say to heart. So pumped to do this. But before we jump into it, can you just give us the Coles notes? You know, one minute, how did you end up diving off a cliff and learning how to build a plane on the way down into the world of entrepreneurship and landscaping?

Darren (01:33)
Yeah, okay, I’ll do my best. I’m like most landscapers, I started in this business a long time ago, cutting lawns, working on a fruit farm, worked for moved up work for some big companies, went to school for landscape design for three years. And I started a business way back when I was about 20 years old. And that failed epically with a good friend of mine, as they do.

And so then I needed a little bit of refresh. went out west to Vancouver, worked there for seven years with now a good buddy of mine doing amazing landscapes. And it really like invigorated reinvigorated my passion for like architecture and design. And my wife was missing home. So we came back to Ontario and we sort of said, you know what, if we’re to do this, let’s, let’s do it. Let’s jump right into it. So that was 2020.

was at the time a scary time, but we jumped full into it. And honestly, when we started, it was just like, we were just going to do this like by ourselves. Like I was just going to swing a hammer for the rest of my life. was going to be me and her, maybe labor, and we were going to be happy doing it that way. And ⁓ we branded properly. We got all our ducks in a row and things just started skyrocketing to the point where five years later, here we are with four employees and ⁓ we’ve

We’ve never stopped growing and climbing up the sales ladder and the revenue lab.

Rob Murray (02:54)
Yeah, I know. And it’s, interesting because when I speak to a lot of people and they tell me they have four employees, their revenue is usually like $500,000. Right. And yours is, you know, starting to creep into the 2 million area. Yeah. So we’re going to have to talk a bit about pricing, productivity, profitability, so people can understand like how the heck do you get that kind of production?

out of a crew that size. But before we do that, we have to jump into the question of the show, which is what’s the primary growth constraint holding entrepreneurs back in the green industry that you see happening today?

Darren (03:37)
like every smart person I listen to on your past podcasts and other podcasts, it’s me. It is always, it’s the owner, it’s the person who’s running the show. And we have been working hard at that this year, trying to figure out. So I’ve been working with a consultant and the biggest eye opening thing this year was how many hours do you work?

I don’t know, probably 60 to 70 hours a week. How many hats do you wear? I thought I wore like five hats. I wear like, I wear like 25 hats. So it’s something like I’m passionate about this business and I love it. It didn’t seem weird to me that I was working so much and wearing so many hats. Sometimes I get stressed out for the most part, love it. So I can just, I can roll with it. And I know I get winners to relax, but

It is me at the end of the day. we’re really looking at how to, we have the people in place who can move into management positions. It’s really about the next step is structuring. How are we going to attract the top talent that we’re kind of pulling away from being in the field? Cause they’re great people in the field, but they can also be great management. So now we need to figure out how to attract top talent.

to keep the company growing and have the right pieces in place to still be like productive and quality is there and all those things. So it is me. That’s usually the case. That’s what everybody says and they’re not wrong.

Rob Murray (05:05)
Yeah, I know it’s the truth and what I love about it though and how it’s like graduated in terms of the show is that like at the beginning, the first half of episodes, was all these different answers. And then all of sudden it was just like same answer, same answer, same answer. But what’s really fascinating with the same answer is it’s always different because it’s about the person. And so like no one has brought up this idea that you just shared around. Okay, well, first of all, mean, so lots of people have coaches or consultants working with them.

the common theme in working with those folks is that they kind of put a mirror up in front of the leader or the entrepreneur and it’s like, hey, you got to look at yourself here. you mentioned that with those two kind of anecdotes, one around 60, 70 hours and 20, 25 hats. And so when you went through that exercise and had that aha moment, like how did that contribute to your leadership and mindset?

Darren (05:57)
It was sort of his reaction was, it was just, it was such a basic question. How many hours a week do you work? It’s like C70. And, and it was kind of like, no, you don’t. Right? Like, no, you’re joking. I was like, no, like that’s probably what it is. I work all day, put my kids to bed and then I spend some time in the evenings. Right. And it was his reaction that was sort of like, okay, maybe there is something wrong here. Sure. It’s okay right now.

But he’s got a point. Like it might be okay right now, but it’s no way to live the rest of my life. I can’t go like this forever. Even though I feel like I could, I know the reality is I can’t. And I’ve learned from a lot of other people, other entrepreneurs that it’s just not possible. So I really think it was that moment where it was like, okay, yeah, if somebody else who’s in this business that consults with lot of other people as being like, that’s not okay, then I should probably listen to that.

Rob Murray (06:55)
Well,

yeah, and it can be OK if you don’t care about relationships.

Darren (06:58)
Right. Right.

Rob Murray (07:00)
If your mission is to put humanity onto a different planet, maybe you can just do it all the time. But if you want to actually have a relationship and a family and maybe some joy in your life, maybe it’s not sustainable.

Darren (07:11)
Yeah, yeah. And my kids are fantastic, but there have been times where like, why are you going to work tonight? Why are you working on Saturday? You know, those little things where I do my best, but even those little things, you know, they start to hit you. And that’s, that’s what’s really happened this year is that a family, but also somebody just really kind of telling me like it’s time you’ve done, it’s a, you’re at the point in your business where it is time you need.

Rob Murray (07:38)
Cool. So it’s, it’s, it’s kind of interesting whenever I speak to entrepreneurs or even like a partnership, there’s always like, I always ask the question of like, are you more ops or you more sales? And a lot of people usually say I’m both, but then after digging a little bit, it’s like, you lean one way or the other? And I usually find people do. So when you went through the hats exercise, and I’m, I’m under the impression that there’s some hats that you wear because you have to, and you don’t want to, there’s some hats you wear.

because you love to. And so like, what was that like? And how did that shake out?

Darren (08:12)
Well, interestingly enough, before I even started this process this year, in the winter, I went to the landscape designers conference at Congress and I ran into somebody and we hit it off and he’s a designer and I shed my most valuable hat right at the beginning of this year. I hired him to do 90 % of our designs this year. And that’s the thing I love the most, but it was, what’s the easiest thing for me to shed?

built a great relationship. felt a trusted connection with this person right away. And it was like, okay, this one’s easy. I’ll give you the design work. Now I’m free to do the management stuff because at the end of the day, the design is so consuming, but it’s not what’s continuing the cruise from a day-to-day standpoint. So I shed my most love path right away. All I wanna do is design.

So I still do a little bit of it for more like past clients that are wanting to do more work. I keep that sort of in-house, but aside from that, now I’m sales and management. That’s what I do. So I would be looking to get rid of the day-to-day management is like the next step.

Rob Murray (09:25)
Cool, because you’re kind of putting yourself into the highest leverage activity, which at the end of the day is going to be sales because there’s no sales, there’s no business. ⁓

Darren (09:31)
Yeah,

yeah. consider myself a terrible salesperson. I guess so. mean, I just I really don’t think I’ve never taken a sales course. I don’t read a lot of books, so I don’t necessarily have time right now for it. I think it’s my passion that sells. Honestly, finding the right clients is a big hand in that.

Rob Murray (09:38)
The best ones usually do.

Darren (09:55)
but I think I could sell more if I probably had more of a background in it.

Rob Murray (10:00)
Yeah, I mean, that’s, I mean, it’s interesting you say that, yeah, I’m going to come back to the, you know, sales efficiency if we get time, but you know, the, the sales approach is different than necessarily like efficiency in a sales process. Like, you know, how we interact with humans is different than how we like coordinate those activity and touch points. And we see a lot of wins for people in terms of streamlining the actual way that we

figure out how to communicate with people quickly, you know, and taking speed from like lead to deal. But I think there’s something about the way you approach humans, because we always talk about the idea of that people hate to be sold, but love to buy. so like a good salesperson selling somebody doesn’t necessarily make people feel good. And someone who’s in there to just help because they want to, it usually comes off pretty authentically. So I think it people feel better. Yes.

Darren (10:38)
Yes.

Yes.

Rob Murray (10:55)
You mentioned the idea of shedding like a very valuable and desired hat that you have in the design process. And we hear a lot of folks as they’re starting to grow and bring in key players into the organization. When they start to delegate, really it’s here. Bye. And then maybe it goes, well, maybe it doesn’t. And it kind of depends on the person that took the thing.

What have you learned or what has worked for you or didn’t when it comes to delegating a key role like this?

Darren (11:23)
Yeah, the design one was one was a hard one to consider even shedding because that’s really the core, like your brand, right? Like there’s a lot of, for lack of a better word, like sort of run of the mill, landscape companies that will install Pisa walls or Brussels block on every single job, right? Like let’s get in, get out, we’ll give you a landscape that’s fine. But our brand, our image the whole time has been like,

There’s no two landscapes that are the same. Every landscape has a different story, a personality, a style, the client’s different. Like that is what we sell. And that’s why that’s our brand. So it’s really hard to consider letting go of that when that is such a key component as to why you have a good word of mouth in a very small community that we live in. Right. So when I met that designer, it was like,

you’re going to take the work, I’m still the face. So he doesn’t live locally. So I go to the meetings, I still have those meetings and I sell them on the design, but all the information gets passed off to him and he does the work. So we have meetings every one or two weeks where we look at the design projects that are going on. I still get a say in them. He’s doing all of the back end work.

Rob Murray (12:45)
Yeah, well, it’s interesting, like we talked about this idea of like, you have to inspect what you expect. And it seems like that’s kind of like buried in your processes that there is an inspection.

Darren (12:54)
100%. Like there’s no way you could just let that go free, especially when I’m the one still presenting it. Because a lot of people hire us for me. you design so-and-so’s yard. I want you to design mine. Well, then I still need to be the person to show up. One day that will be completely shed. But I’ve let go of like that actual in the office designing and spending hours making sure it’s all good. Like you said, inspecting was important, but there’s a lot of freelance designers that you could hire.

but they’re not gonna be interested in you having a sit. Right. Right? And I respect that 100%. But this particular person was completely open to that and us building this relationship and working the more we work together, the less I’ll have to be there.

Rob Murray (13:40)
Right. And it seemed like there was like a philosophical or values match. Like they understood your vision.

Darren (13:45)
Yeah, it was, it’s so funny how it all worked out and happened. I wasn’t even going to go and then I went and we, yeah, we just met and it was, so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Murray (13:56)
Serendipitous.

So you look at the hours, the hats, you find some key roles, you found a key person, you shared vision, value match, it’s working out, it’s going really well. You mentioned the next thing is really like attracting top talent. And when we speak to people, all sizes, what I find is really interesting is that the mindset of entrepreneurs at different sizes of business are pretty consistent.

And the folks that have been running say a business for 14 or 15 years and it’s like $400,000, $500,000. Common things we hear is like, can’t find anybody good. People running $10 million companies say that their job is to build people like totally different mindsets. And then there’s like, know, the 500 to 1.5 million. I wanted to build people, but now I’m jaded because they left and started their own business to compete with me.

So what do you see that you have to do as a leader so that people want to come be part of what you’re doing?

Darren (15:00)
One of our key players came to me because of our brand. He saw our trucks around. He didn’t live in town, but his parents lived close to us and he saw our trucks and looked us up and ended up reaching out. And the guy’s awesome. Like he’s exactly who we needed at that right time. Again, sort of a serendipitous thing that just happened. fell on their lap and it was like, okay, awesome.

The thing for me is that I think that’s really the key is that your brand isn’t just attracting good clients. It’s attracting good talent. People want to work at a place where they can feel like passionate about it. They’re happy to go in. They love the work that they do and everybody else does too. So it means something. You’re not just waking up to dig a hole. You’re waking up to create a beautiful landscape for a wonderful client who’s going to treat you well.

Rob Murray (15:54)
Same job, different purpose, totally different job.

Darren (15:56)
Right, right. And all of my clients, there hasn’t been one this year where we finished the job. They all say, man, your guys are awesome. They’re so kind. They’re clean. They’re branded well. They talk good about you when you’re gone, which is rare. Right. So I just have that built into my team and I don’t, can’t necessarily pinpoint exactly what we did right. But I do think the branding has a huge influence on it and the type of work that we try to take on.

the variety of work that we do, we’re not doing the same thing day in day out, and we never really will. So I think that’s key to attracting a talent. If you can find somebody who’s been in the industry long enough and maybe they’re getting a little sick of what they’re doing or who they’re working for, they need a change of pace, well, we’re the right company to move to because we’re different from the rest.

Rob Murray (16:48)
Yeah, okay. That’s cool. So then the brand’s really going to get someone to knock on your door. then what do you see as a leader yourself to make people want to come do work with you and stay?

Darren (16:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I’ve asked my guys this, like, you know, give me an evaluation at the end of the year, halfway through the year. What am I doing that’s working for you? What am I not doing? And the key thing for them is that I pay a fair wage for one. Money isn’t everything, but I pay a fair wage.

Rob Murray (17:20)
Well,

if it’s not there, it’s everything. And if it is there, it’s not about everything.

Darren (17:25)
Yes, agreed. And the other thing is I don’t run like this standard. Like when I started in the industry, it was working six to six or six to seven, grinding, hustling with very little like sort of empathy for what you do outside of work, right? We don’t have a life. It doesn’t matter. But I’m very like, you know, 730 to four, right? Like it doesn’t matter if there’s

Rob Murray (17:44)
Doesn’t matter.

Darren (17:52)
Really, there’s very rarely a time where I’m like, boys, we got to work till seven because this has to get done. It’s like, there’s another day. We will make it work. And so, and I try and schedule the jobs that way too, right? So I’m not like panicking, like I have to get this done because I told a client that I’m going to. Yeah, no, I don’t do that. And I really don’t. think the guys have maybe worked like a Saturday this year. so those little things that sound little, but they’re huge. Like.

Rob Murray (18:08)
I’m gonna be there in the morning.

Darren (18:20)
A couple of my guys have families and a mortgage and you know, so they need to be paid well, but they also need to have time with their families. And just because I am okay working 60, 70 hours a week doesn’t mean they are. They work for me because they don’t want to run a business. Right? So.

Rob Murray (18:36)
Ooh, I mean, when you say it out loud, people hear that they get it, but that’s a mic drop moment, right?

Darren (18:42)
Right? Yeah. And so like if you want to have happy employees, I think that’s super important that you, got to pay them well, but you got to treat them well. And I like to think I’m more than fair and they, they tell me I am, you know, we do little things. There’s, you hear a lot of companies talk about culture and how important that is. And I agree. That’s not something at this point in our business that we’ve had like major breakthroughs on like what’s our culture and what does our company mean and stand for? We’ll, we’ll get to that point.

But for now, it’s really about treating them with respect and giving them time off when they need it. Not being a hard ass and caring about them is important. And that’s just it. I think it’s just trying to be a good human, Life is hard and it’s weird and everybody wants to go home.

Rob Murray (19:25)
You know, I, it’s really interesting you say it like that. because as you’ve been sharing on the show so far, almost sounds like your core values are clear. And in terms of like respect balance, there’s something like everything’s unique, whether it’s landscape or human empathy, like

You’re probably really close to understanding core values. the thing that I found really interesting working with lots of people and people speaking around culture, like culture for me is like a thing that exists no matter what. whether, whether you do it intentionally or not, it’s there. I kind of look at the culture, like it’s what’s inside the Petri dish and core values or how you design the Petri dish. Like, do you want air and sunlight and a little bit of moisture so that things are healthy? Or do you want to have it like dark cold, you know,

there’s lots of wet and it’s like moldy. And so I core values are just ways to define how you live so that the culture you want exists. And I’m getting the sense from the way you’re describing how you guys roll that you probably have a strong culture and there’s core values that do live that maybe just haven’t been penned quite yet.

Darren (20:37)
Yeah, yeah, no, I like that. I like that. That’s a good way to look at it, for sure. But hearing you analyze how I spoke about it kind of makes a little light bulb go out. Like, yeah, I think you’re probably right. I could probably start writing some things down here.

Rob Murray (20:50)
I did. did. I’m not going to say what they are, I mean, I think I kind of did. but I think it’s really interesting in the way you say this and for anybody listening about like, how do you attract top talent? Like your, your response was good brand tree people. Right. Yeah. Like I think people need to get the people that hear that and understand it are like, yep, he got it. And the people that think that it’s more difficult than that, maybe just haven’t figured out that it’s simple.

The kicker though is that if you, you sound like you have an abundant mindset, it’s like, we don’t have to rush through everything. We can give people space. can plan accordingly. and I think some folks hear that and they go, dude, we were here to make money. This is a business. And so I want to take that transition into this six person company doing almost $2 million. So like how can you help us understand pricing, productivity, margin?

How do you approach that to give yourself an opportunity to build a culture the way you described?

Darren (21:49)
That’s a good question.

I don’t know if I have the perfect answer for that. mean, unlike every other business, I build a budget and I have but your jet. ⁓

Rob Murray (21:59)
Whoa, whoa,

whoa, whoa, whoa,

Darren (22:00)
Okay, well, if you’re listening to this show, start with a budget.

Rob Murray (22:04)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

Darren (22:05)
Fundamentally, fundamentals, build a budget is the number one thing. Like I hate to say it, but obviously build a budget and have an idea of what you’re trying to shoot for. And ⁓ I mean, that’s, it seems so basic to me. I’ve done that since day one though.

Rob Murray (22:24)
But how do you make sure your pricing is strong? Because a lot of people ⁓ can work themselves into a lot of revenue and no margin.

Darren (22:32)
How do I know my pricing strong? I’ve been doing this for 20 years. I know what it takes to get a project done. I know what my guys are capable of. I am considering myself lucky. I have three guys who are experienced and they have no desire to go anywhere else. It’s kind of a weird thing, right? I understand that I am lucky and fortunate to have those people.

A lot of guys struggle with that. So I have a core group. have experience. I personally have experience. I know that if I am able to put out an estimate with the numbers I put on it and my guys can get it done in that amount of time using that amount of material, I’m going to make money. And if I, if I have all that laid out in front of me this year, we wanted to shoot for 1.3, 1.4 and we’re going to be like bang on.

And that’s not just a, by chance that’s, that was all ironed out that last winter to hit that. So if, if I, if I’m doing all that correctly, it means I don’t need to tell my guys you’re working 12 hours a day, six days a week. Right. I’m pricing out my jobs to if it’s a five day job, then it’s a five day job. And if it’s going to take six or seven, well, then that’s on me. I’m not going to push my guys to work longer. It’s, it’s my screw up.

And that’s the only way to look at it. It’s not them, it’s me. And if they do screw up, so what? Like if my numbers are in line and I’m shooting for X amount of net profit percentage, then, you know, let’s all just, we’re all gonna make a living if it drops by a percent or 2%, well, you might make it up on the next one. So I’m very less like military tactic on.

this is how things get done and I need to hit that number. It’s just, it’s been working out, but I’ve been very diligent on how I price things and how I plan it out from the beginning using the estimating software that we use. We use SyncDev.

Rob Murray (24:30)
And what do you use?

Yeah. Okay. Cool. and it sounds like you give yourself the space to plan properly. Yes. Instead of run, run, run, run, run, you know, fit it in, fit it in, jam it. Here’s a, here’s a quote, send it out. Let’s see how we do. And then four months later, look back and say, ⁓ whoops. So you’re much more methodical. So starting with what you said at the beginning in terms of the budget process, how much time does it take you to put that together?

Like how much space do you give yourself?

Darren (24:58)
That’s something I’m working on becoming quicker at. Right now I’m still doing everything, typing every estimate out per job and it’s all very custom. I’m trying to streamline that process. That’s gonna be a winter project for me to utilize Synced Up to be much better for spitting out estimates. Because right now it’s just, every job’s different, but right now it’s taking me too long to build estimates because everything is so custom and I can streamline.

So I spent too much time on the backend building an estimate and then getting it out. I know that can be streamlined for sure. So I’m not the expert as far as making sure I’m efficient with getting my estimates out.

Rob Murray (25:39)
but you’re still giving yourself the space so that you can be efficient doing the work.

Darren (25:43)
Yes, yes I am. But that’s because I know how long it’s going to take to get things done. So there was one time this year in the summer it was a big project and we went over by a week.

That’s, that’s huge, right? That is no good. Somehow I still am able to price things out and look back on that. And we didn’t lose money on that job. Right now. I mean, I know we’re not the cheapest in town, but I also know we’re not the most expensive and being in a smaller town, you figure that out pretty quickly. You can tell you that.

Rob Murray (25:59)
No bueno.

Darren (26:22)
And I’m not looking to be anywhere even like sort of, I hate using the word cheap. I hate using the word expensive. It’s not about that. It’s about the service we’re providing for our clients.

Rob Murray (26:32)
And

the value they get, Yeah.

Darren (26:33)
I’m

a little off track, but every company runs a different ship. So, you know, our prices are priced because of the way we operate and the margins we need to hit. And we need to be profitable and grow and give our employees a good living. So that’s why our price is what our price is. But I give, I give ourselves time on the job. I give leeway if a job’s going to go over by a week, which doesn’t happen very often, but if it does, I have buffers in place for all of that to happen. I like to give my clients when we’re like two months out, be like,

you know, somewhere in these, the this week or this week we’ll be there in a couple of weeks. I’m to reach out and let you know how things are moving along. And, I’m fortunate that our clients understand and respect all of that. had a client out on a week’s worth of work one time. And now you see that screws up the whole schedule, but if you’re giving yourselves the buffer with your clients and making them already understand that if I say I’m there, I’m going to be there on Tuesday. doesn’t mean I’m going to be there on Tuesday. It means there’s about a week buff. So, Hey,

We had a hot bunch of work added on. We’re going to be here now. Push that this time. No problem. That’s where our expectation was already there. So it’s okay. And then I’m not stressed out about it. And my guys aren’t stressed out about it. And they’re not going to cut corners because I’m telling them to hurry up.

Rob Murray (27:48)
Yeah, like get off the site and then it’s not going to be messy. It’s going to be cleaned up properly. Like full thing, a good customer experience at the end, you know, it doesn’t matter how good of a job. Yeah. Well, it doesn’t matter how good a job you do. If you leave it a mess or you leave in a hurry, the whole thing goes to shit.

Darren (28:01)
You’re only as good as your last job.

Rob Murray (28:03)
Yeah, Planning in space provides opportunity to think. And I think a lot of people undervalue thinking.

Darren (28:11)
Yeah, so if you’re doing like $2 million and you have like twice as many employees as me, I would have to have like, say, I look at the numbers. Like what’s the overhead? Like why aren’t you able to do more? Or who are your customers? What’s your net? Like how are you making money? Like where’s, and where are you making money? Are you doing the things you shouldn’t be doing?

Are you focused on things that aren’t really making you money and then you look at the jobs that are making money? Well, maybe you should focus more on those.

Rob Murray (28:43)
Wait a second, hold on, slow down.

Darren (28:44)
Yeah, I know. It’s rocket science, I know.

Rob Murray (28:47)
You

know, we always, when we, when we started talking to somebody before they work with us, we always kind of break down their revenue by buckets in terms of like, okay, what’s the business, like your residential commercial, you know, maintenance, design, build, you know, whatever, enhancements, construction, whatever. And then what’s the core focus? And they’re like, Oh, know. You know, I’m like, okay, which one’s the most profitable? They’re like, Oh, it’s this one and that one. I’m like, Hey, which out of those two, which one’s most fun? And they’re like, Oh, that one’s most fun. So was like, that one’s the most fun and the most profitable. Maybe, maybe.

Maybe we focus on that one.

Darren (29:17)
I’m also, bad. I’m bad at that though, because I love variety so much, almost too much. I love to be at projects that are different than what maybe we would normally do. I have a skilled team so we can look around quite like our scope of work can be a lot more broad than maybe others can be. That doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. I, that’s something that as our company grows, we need to dial that dial

Rob Murray (29:42)
Maybe, maybe, maybe at the same time though, I do believe when, you know, after learning about you and working with you and speaking with you, you do have a consistent outcome that you’re trying to create every time. And, and you definitely use a variety of tools in inside a tool bag to do so. but you’re what you’re promising to people is pretty consistent. And so it’s, it’s, it’s interesting too that you, mentioned Ashley’s podcast.

it’s probably worth an introduction because they have a very neat approach to what you’re talking about in terms of like a pretty solid diversity of, of services, but a very consistent delivery. so anyway, that’s just something just kind of rung a bell. one last piece before you get into like, some inspiration components, as a design centric landscaper who understands the craft, the skill, the vision.

And with the advent of AI and the way that you’re thinking about it, I’m under the impression you’ve maybe dabbled to see if it’s any good or if it’s just a bunch of garbage or how can it help? Like, where do you see AI in the world of design?

Darren (30:46)
In the world of design, I think it has long ways to go. think it’s really great for simple things. I think it’s interesting on the conceptual side. You you take a picture of your client’s front house and they have this idea in their head and okay, you can go to chat to BT and say, show me some of these ideas that you were talking about. And it can kind of put it put that idea out there fairly quickly. But it’s not getting it to a point where okay, now I have like,

a firm working drawing scaled and perfectly accurate. That’s where we still need to come into play and actually make that whole idea that AI rendering a reality.

Rob Murray (31:29)
So

do you use that though in the sales process to help people understand a little visual of what’s up?

Darren (31:33)
No, I don’t. I haven’t needed to. that doesn’t mean that I don’t think it’s a bad idea. I think it’s a cool tool, but I also think it can be a little bit

Rob Murray (31:44)
It’s like Pinterest. I want this.

Darren (31:45)
Yeah,

it’s like 3D renderings. I love 3D renderings, but you always have to tell your client the expectation shouldn’t be that it’s going to look exactly like this. Not everything, flowers going to be in bloom at the same time like it is on this rendering and or whatever, right? Like it’s like, this is still rendering. It’s going to look a lot. The colors are going to be a little bit different. So

If you’re going to show something for AI, it really has to be that conceptual phase, I think. It’s not there for like a full, nothing, the 2D drawing, right? Construction drawing is going to show you all the information, the intricate details that your client needs to understand, which helps them understand why the cost of the project is what it is. It’s really hard to show like an AI video or a photo and be like, yeah, that’s a $50,000 project. why? Yeah.

Rob Murray (32:39)
There’s no context, right?

Darren (32:41)
There’s

no context to it and it’s just it’s too it’s too loose. There’s no detail.

Rob Murray (32:47)
I’m curious to see how long it’s going to take for people to inquire with AI rendering. It’s being like, hey, I’ve been putting this through chat. I’m just curious, like, do you think you can come help us figure this out? Like, I think it’s coming. I still think we’re maybe a year or two out, but it’ll be interesting to see.

Darren (33:01)
It’s definitely coming, for sure. There’s no doubt in my mind. And I would like to be like ahead of it and on it. So we’ll do our best to.

Rob Murray (33:08)
Well, it’s but it’s also interesting because the tools get so much better and we start using it today and then, you know, get stuck into a process that we’ve created. And then in four weeks, there’s a new way to do it. That’s much better. It’s like there can be a first mover advantage and a first mover disadvantage right now. So it’s a really interesting time to either like jump in or sit back. And I don’t know, it’s a it’s a pretty cool we’re going to be doing an AI for landscape or session in November. So we’ll make sure we send an invite to everybody to share some of the wins and some of the mishaps.

Darren (33:38)
Yeah, it’d be pretty ignorant to like just completely ignore it. Right? it’s a there’s a hands down it is happening. So if you’re going to be like, of the mindset like no, I guys bunch of garbage. It’s like, well, no, like it’s just, it’s not, it’s not there yet, but you might as well get in line and follow it because it will be a competitive advantage.

Rob Murray (33:59)
And I think that’s the biggest thing that we’re taking away from the session we’re putting on is that AI is going to replace humans, but humans using AI are going to crush people at home. Right. Okay. One inspiration, know, resource, author, book, video, podcast. Like what’s something that you think would be worthwhile sharing with others?

Darren (34:08)
Yeah.

⁓ my inspiration has come from the work that I was doing at West. So it’s really nothing that I think I can necessarily pass along to people. John Minty was one of the designers that we were working for at West. And I don’t even know if he has a true, like a business name per se or a website. I don’t know. but we, got to work with him and, ⁓ my good friend now Pure Landscapes.

That company did very well and he’s now back out in Nova Scotia, living a wonderful, slowed down life. But Pure Landscapes was the company I worked for when we were in Vancouver. And it was really mainly me and him doing work for architects and these projects that were just incredibly inspiring. And it was that work that I got to do in the field and the projects I got to see and the designers I got to work with.

It’s just the passion. was like that passion that it was like creating this these beautiful spaces for people to be like interactive. And I don’t I don’t have a firm podcast or a book. I’m probably just too busy for that kind of stuff. But no, it’s all

Rob Murray (35:23)
I think what you said though is like looking at what other people are doing and exposing yourself to what’s possible is a big deal

Darren (35:29)
Yeah, and just being like educated in it. really don’t do this. I don’t do this just to throw down papers. Like that’s not what landscaping means to me. It’s the interactive. It truly is like it’s just the interaction in the space and how to make it customized for every single individual. So ⁓

Rob Murray (35:48)
I threw the site in there. want to just double check before I mention it if that is.

on Minty.

Darren (35:52)
Yeah, that’s it.

Rob Murray (35:53)
So johnmintydesign.com. Check it out.

Darren (35:56)
Yeah. Incredible designer. just like, it’s, so different than what we’re used to. You would show up on site and, know, just hand sketch out all this stuff and be like, okay, build this. Okay. But we, built this relationship with him. were like, we started to understand like this is exactly, know what, we know what you want, John. And then the client would show up and they’d like, that’s what we’re doing. I love that. And it was just so cool to see a designer be so free.

from the constraints of a client because his trust in his name and his brand was so strong that he could just show up and sketch things out as they were moving through a very fluid process. And I envy that. I would love to get to that point at some time. So thank you.

Rob Murray (36:40)
Well, I think you’re well on your way, my friend.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you for doing this and for everybody to listen into another episode. Stay tuned for the next one, I guess. And thank you, Darren, for being part of it.

Darren (36:48)
Thank you very much.